ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
12-10-2015, 07:57 AM
Post: #51
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
I dont think each pharmacist should start with a different amount of resources, primarily because that is just unnecessary and confusing and would probably only serve to promote things we dont want, such as locking a certain guy into only having one viable choice at the start of the game, say, because he doesnt start with any drugs but instead has a ton of construction, thus defaulting him into building something.

That said, the specific numbers dont matter yet, but you should probably start with enough of each thing for you to perform one action with, more or less. As an additional mechanic, you could at the start of the game choose one type of resource which you start with twice the normal amount of. I'd only recommend having something like that in place if the pharmacist designs dont make one particular resource vastly superior to all other resources for that particular pharmacist though, otherwise everyone would just choose the resource that is good for their guy. Which is boring.

What about cards, by the way? Cards have been brought up a number of times but i havnt heard anything about any card draw or anything along those lines.
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12-10-2015, 09:36 AM
Post: #52
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
Right, cards.

As I have them now (fitting around suggestions of 'finding' things), cards would be drawn when you Scavenge an area. While most cards would simply be 'you find X resources', every now and then there could be one that gives you a specific item, bonus, or event.

There could be other places to draw cards, but no other situations have been envisioned by me or brought up by others (I think).
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12-10-2015, 10:00 AM
Post: #53
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
I guess i agree with that design, although it might feel a little weird to be sitting with a hand of maybe only 1-2 special cards and then drawing another resource card. Still, maybe with the tons of other options available, you dont really need a ton of special cards.
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12-10-2015, 01:00 PM
Post: #54
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
I don't think you'd get to start with special cards - so getting them would be more of a matter of luck and time spent scavenging - and I mean getting actual resources from scavenging should for the most part be just as important since it's your primary means of expanding.
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12-10-2015, 10:15 PM
Post: #55
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
Relevant: I like the solution in Arkham Horror: draw three cards and keep one. This mechanic could work well either as a base mechanic for scavenging, or perhaps, for Very Lucky Finds.

It is time time
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12-11-2015, 05:56 AM
Post: #56
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
I really like that idea - both mechanically and flavourwise it works out really nicely.

Speaking of scavenging, how should it work? Right now I have some sort of vague concept of using d6s for any and all rolls in the game (since they're easy to come by and all that), and having a roll of 1d6/2d6/3d6 determine the maximum amount of scavenging that can be done in any rural/suburban/urban area a game - probably mark it with either tokens or count out the actual cards from the scavenge deck and put them there.

Do you guys think that would be a workable idea?

If we stick with PL's idea for drawing three cards and choosing one, do you think those cards should be trashed if not chosen or should they remain at the tile for anyone to take at their leisure?
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12-11-2015, 07:52 AM
Post: #57
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
I dont think rolling for how many times you can do a thing in a specific area would be very fun. Maybe its based on whether its an urban, suburban or rural zone instead? That way, you know what to expect. So if you are looking for a new area to scavenge, you would choose to explore in an urban area, and would feel smart for making that choice.

As for the cards... Eh, i dont know. Invading an enemy's territory, scavenging it and choosing a card you know you opponent needs even if you dont necessarily need it that much yourself is cool, i guess? But at the same time, what do you do with all those untaken cards? Just sort of leave them on the tile? Thatd create some odd scenarios where you are walking around on a map thats covered in cards, but you keep exploring new tiles because the specific thing you are looking for hasnt turned up yet.

Conversely, if you discard the others or return them to the pile or whatever, you KNOW that you have to choose between those two really cool cards because whichever you dont choose wont turn up again for a very long time, if ever. Then again, if most of the cards are just generic +resource cards, that wont happen most of the time. Choosing between a resource and a special effect can still be cool though, i guess.
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12-11-2015, 11:48 AM
Post: #58
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
To clarify - if you rolled you'd still be more or less guaranteed to get more in an urban zone than a rural one - namely you'd get between 1-6 for rural, 2-12 for suburban, and 3-18 for urban. I figured it as a way to make things a little more randomized, but if you think it would be better to just have hard numbers that'd certainly be something to consider.

Agree that keeping the cards would clutter things - while I like the concept of being able to go back for things I can't think of a way to take care of that problem. If cards were just discarded, they could probably be shuffled back into the deck more or less if you're worried about things being missed, or the decks could just be smaller.
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12-11-2015, 12:18 PM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2015 12:23 PM by chimericWilder.)
Post: #59
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
Well, im all for randommness wherever its appropriate, but im not sure it would be a good fit in this instance since you would need to roll for that EVERY time you add a new tile, AND then calculate it in relation to whether its urban/etc. Plus, like the cards, having d6 denoting all of that on every tile would also get cluttery (although atleast you'd still be able to see the tile art). That said, i do like the idea of getting excited because you rolled a 6, or disappointed on a 1, since youd know that that was directly enriching your realm. Hell, even watching an enemy roll a 6 could be cool, as you could then start planning on invading their land to get to those prosperous scavenging grounds.

Im just saying that when you're actually sitting there and drawing tiles, adding tons of steps to that process isnt necessarily going to be enjoyable, especially since you cant rely on a computer to take care of a bunch of things. That said, what one COULD do would be having special effects on all/some of the tiles themselves (once again like in Betrayal, i guess), and it would make a ton of sense for some of those to be 'increased scavenging'.

Also in terms of numbers i was personally thinking things should be a lot more limited? I mean, if you can scavenge only once per turn (and since its basically card draw i think once per turn is definitely the limit. dont want to draw a whole ton of cards only go shrug and turn most of them down) then you could live off of just a single urban tile for SOOOO LONG depending on the roll... and you're gonna be controlling a whole bunch of them. However, if they are more limited that forces the player either to explore further away from their base, thus possibly opening them up to being attacked by a sneaky opponent... or, wanting their rivals territory, they themselves will be that sneaky guy, trying to scavenge off of an enemy's territory to weaken them strengthen themselves.

E: also, consider having chosing the card you scavenge be limited by the amount of scavenge left on that tile. Meaning on a tile with only 2 scavenges left, you could choose between two cards, and on tiles with only 1, you would get only the single card and no choice. This would make urban areas even more important since they would be able to offer more choice than suburban and especially rural.
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12-26-2015, 03:24 AM
Post: #60
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
Alright, so I'm still busy with holiday season and other things but I wanted to finally respond to this (because I thought I had left it for a week and it's been over two T_T).

Do you think a better way to randomize scavenging would be to have each tile have a set amount of scavenge on it? IE: All urban tiles look the same until you get to it, in which case you flip it over and find out what paths are blocked and how much scavenging can be done.

I like the idea you brought up in your edit - maybe when you scavenge you look at X number of unrevealed cards and then get to choose Y from all of the flipped cards - including those found on earlier trips?

I figured your 'turns' when it comes to interacting on the map would be based more on your minions than anything else? Basically your 'turn' as it were, would be one action for your pharmacist to do something, one for each 'team' (which could be made up of all nameless goons for cheap, but low effect/high risk gathering, a minion and underlings for balance, or several minions for particularly important/dangerous jobs). Said teams would do basically all possible actions - scavenging, producing, trading, fighting and building.

In the coming days I'm going to want to start getting into these actions in more detail as well as coming up with the rules and concepts for minions, so feel free to come up with prompts and questions for that as well (and, of course, if you have something else entirely you want to talk/ask about/suggest by all means go ahead).
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12-26-2015, 03:54 AM
Post: #61
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
I suppose the total amount of scavenging could be tied to each individual tile, possibly with a little knob you could rotate to denote how many times you can scavenge built into the tiles. I dont think i mentioned numbers in my previous post, but i was thinking something along the lines of 1 for rural, 2 for suburban and 3 for urban, and then maybe something like 6 for your hq- but thats assuming once a turn is how itd work, and i dont really have any opinion on whether that system is better or worse than letting you have just any minion be capable of scavving as you seem to suggest (if i understood right). On one hand, it gives the player more choice to focus on picking an area clean for resources, but on the other hand it also introduces a ton of other stuff - you could go through an entire area's scavenge, drawing a ton of cards and gaining plenty of resources in a short time will make each of those things feel less important, and then more important once youve exhausted your immediate area. I dont know, either way could work if designed right.
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01-03-2016, 09:01 AM
Post: #62
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
I think the best way to denote how much a tile can be scavenged would be tokens of some sort? As soon as you know the number of scavenge actions available (via predetermined numbers or a randomized roll) you grab however many are needed and place them there - that way you know how many more resources are available there (and possibly what kinds, if the tokens were two-sided) without it taking up a ton of room or making things too busy. Not sure. As for minions scavenging, I was thinking that by 'being better at it' I more meant that it could translate into something like this:

Minion A has scavenge level 2, he can thus look at two scavenging tiles and choose one OR can choose two already revealed ones.
Minion A has scavenge level 3, she can thus look at three scavenging tiles and choose one OR can choose two already revealed ones.

So being better means you can scavenge more optimally early on and faster later on.

Anyways, past that I know I said I wanted to get to stuff but the holidays have been busy and I have to get back to work and [insert screaming noises here]. I'll try and go into some quick details with that stuff.

Actions as they are would probably be scavenging, production, trading, and combat. To sum up my current thoughts on this:

1) Scavenging is how well one can go through the ruins of the city and find good stuff. The better one is at scavenging, the more things they can look for at once/the more they can take back with them once they know where things already are.

2) Production is both the measure of how many Drugs one can produce per turn, but also how much one can contribute towards a building project per turn.

3) Trading is how much you can exchange your Goods and Drugs for at the City Centre. Higher level traders can buy more with what they have.

4) Combat is fighting, either against rival gangs or the dangers of the city. Currently I don't have any ideas for how to make one better mechanically at fighting, so right now I figure it would more come down to numbers, items, and/or special abilities. I guess you could get bonuses to a randomized roll (ie: you get Xd6 where X is your combat level) but I'm not sure about that.

All generic goons by default have the lowest rank in each of these abilities - minions and pharmacists are much more reliable and efficient. For minions, I figure a good rule of thumb would be that they would have 2-3 points into these 'abilities' beyond that, so they could be really good at one thing or above average at a couple (outside of special abilities). Pharmacists would probably have 2s and 3s across the board, so they can always help out in a pinch. I could also see standardizing the actions and only having differences come through special abilities but I think this way allows for more varied play since it doesn't rely as much on players just getting a good combination of powers or something.
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01-03-2016, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2016 10:37 AM by chimericWilder.)
Post: #63
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
Oh yea, tokens are a great solution. Good idea.

Hooowever... I think maybe having ranks or levels isnt? Especially not in any case where they would scale in a non-obvious way. The scavenger levels you provided as examples could work, provided that one can always only choose two already revealed cards, regardless of rank- even at level 1. And that would be kind of shitty since that would make people want to not scavenge since, provided that there is currently no revealed pile, that means that they get to choose one piece of scavenge but the guy who goes next would be able to get two. Could work if it always remained as choose only 1 revealed card, though.

Point being that if its hard to remember what one level of a talent does, youd have to constantly doublecheck it and that is both annoying and boring and only serves to distract from the actual gameplay. If it proves hard to figure out some nice, linear scaling on these levels, i'd instead suggest having each minion having one or more specializations, where each specialization would always provide the same bonus. That said, i think you are right that having levels in these things would make for more interesting gameplay provided that the bonuses associated with such a system can be easily remembered by players who are less familiar with the game than you its creator. For instance, a guy who has two levels in scavenging and one level in fighting would probably get pulled to help with fighting whenever anything remotely threatening showed up, whereas a guy who just had a specialization in scavenging per my suggestion would only get pulled if the situation was truly desperate.

Also yea we should probably figure out how fights are resolved. I dont really have any input on that, cant remember any board games where fighting is actually done well. Other than chess. Chess doesnt count.
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01-14-2016, 07:03 AM
Post: #64
RE: ChocStarter: Final Pharmasy
I hope Tabletop Simulator is on a sale soon, I might try to play around with this idea on it.

It is time time
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