Mechanics and Analysis
10-03-2013, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2015 11:21 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #1
Mechanics and Analysis
Mechanic Discussion and Analysis:
NOW A Q&A TOPIC!

I feel like it would be both beneficial and stimulating for the community to have open discussions about the mechanics of mafia setups. This topic was previously reserved with specific topics, but I feel that it makes more sense for it to be an open, general chat of sorts on the subject.

Remember! Do not discuss games currently in progress or bring up topics/discussion that may interfere with ongoing games! It is strictly forbidden!

Some examples of discussion material:
  • How particular roles function and how to play them (e.g. Cops, Bulletproof Scum)
  • Scenario-based strategy
  • Role abilities and their usefulness/effectiveness/power
  • Open Setup v.s. Closed Setup
  • Third Parties
  • Extended Mechanics (CH All-Desperado, etc.)
  • Games similar to Mafia or Hunts (The Resistance, for example)

For the sake of building anticipation and such, anyone interested in "booking" a timeslot to initiate signups a future mafia game is more than welcome to do so, provided that their setup has been looked over by an established member of the community. The game's title does not necessarily have to be mentioned in case you'd like to keep the subject matter a secret.
Hopefully this will help provide folks a means of gauging when to actually start signups for their next game and reduce slow periods that might reduce activity on this subforum.

A time slot will not have a set time to start, but instead will sort of organize people based on how soon they have shown that they have a setup ready to launch (setups with Pick Your Poison mechanics have looser restrictions).

On hosting setups:
If you have never hosted a mafia setup before (on this forum)...
1. You must successfully play at least three games in this subforum to or near completion. At least one of these games must be a Mafia game.
2. You must be in good standing with the staff and community on the forum
3. Your first mafia setup must be a standard Mafia game (Closed Setup, not too many unusual roles. That means no Hunts, Clusterfucks or mafias with unusual game mechanics. The Resistance is currently exempt from this.)
4. You probably will be required to have an assistant moderator whom will act as somewhat of a mentor figure, making sure that your first setup is successful and helping to avoid errors in following out game master duties.

If you have hosted at least one successful mafia setup, you have our permission to propose non-standard Mafia setups. It is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED that you have a firm understanding of how the game mechanics work before considering hosting Open Setups or (especially) Clusterfucks. Open Setups require more time and effort to properly scrutinize, require public input and approval and generally are replayable. Clusterfucks require a firm understanding of what makes a game fun; their mechanics may be loose, but A) even a loose setup requires a tame approach to be fun for everyone playing and B) Clusterfucks aren't fun without a good storyteller, exciting mechanics and good flavour.

Hostable games for this subforum:
Mafia
- Closed Setup (Hidden Roles), Identities Revealed on Death, Scumchat, elimination
- Notable Variant 1: Restricted Role Pools; The possible roles are revealed, but only a select few will be in the game.
- Notable Variant 2: Clusterfuck; Looser balancing, crazier roles, less seriousness
Hunt (Witch Hunt, Werewolf, etc)
- Open Setup (Roles Explained), Scumchat, Elimination
- Notable Variant 1: One Night Werewolf; A very quick variant featuring roles that otherwise might be considered unconventional.
The Resistance (standard and Avalon)
- Open Setup (Roles Explained), No scumchat, Mission Based (No Elimination)
Shank a Bitch (see http://eagle-time.com/showthread.php?tid=830)
- Closed Setup (but everyone is a Serial Killer with a shankproof vest), Not Team Based, Elimination
(this is arguably a Clusterfuck but it's unique and popular enough to warrant its own category IMO)

Previous Topics:
- Vanilla Townies
- Fakeclaiming as Scum
- Messaging Roles
- Busdriving and Redirection
- Protective Roles

Further reading:
MafiaScum Wiki - A relatively indepth wiki about the game from a particularly active community.
ChocolatePi's Mafia Articles - A detailed philosophy on mafia gameplay, particularly in terms of balancing, bad modding practice and open-setup mechanics.
-----------------
A Basic Introduction to Mafia Terms
These introductions are intended to briefly describe the function of common or frequently mentioned roles. They are not intended to describe the strategy behind the role, rather, they simply state how the role works.

Gameplay Mechanics:
TBA

Roles:
Roles are described in the following format:
NAME OF ROLE <Common role title, sometimes followed with a.k.a's>
Role Type: *<The role typing associated with the role, briefly describing the role's utilization.>
Role Description. <Unbolded description of how the role functions.>
Associated Faction: **<One or more of Town, Scum, Third Party, or Other.>
Strategy: <Link to discussion if applicable.>
Examples: <Gameplay examples of a role in action in the following format: Player, followed by "role title in quotation marks", and the game title. These examples must demonstrate the roles function in context. The player in these examples should express an understanding of how their role works and must succeed in making a good contribution to their faction.>

*<Types include:
Offensive: Roles that cause the death of a player, prevent a player from performing actions or are otherwise agressive in purpose.
Ex: Vigilante, Judge, Governor, Obliterator, Mafia Nightkiller

Defensive: Roles that act as direct countermeasures to the effects of Offensive Roles and/or Investigative roles. Usually life-saving roles, but also include roles that prevent actions from being blocked and roles that protect scum from being identified.
Ex: Doctor, Ninja, Godfather

Messaging: Roles that deliver messages or engage in any sort of communication outside of the games topic (excluding the scum faction night-communications)
Ex: Jailer, Mason, Lovers, Messenger

Investigative: Roles that use actions that result in gathered, factual knowledge about the game.
Ex: Cop, Tracker, Watcher, Scientist.

Itemsmith: Roles that hand out items that can be used by the target as an action.

Modifier: Roles that modify the status or alignment of a targeted role. The effects are usually temporary and used as a countermeasure to investigative roles. Similar to the itemsmith but does not allow feedback from the target.
Ex: Marker, Framer

Redirection: Roles that redirect to whom actions are targeted in any manner.
Ex: Busdriver, Redirector, Nexus

Political: Roles with actions determined by or influencing the lynchvote or otherwise incurring an election-related event.
Ex: Governor, Judge, President, Lord of the Pants

Handicap: Roles designed to directly handicap the faction that they are a part of, usually with false reports for investigative roles.
Ex: Miller

Luck: Roles with a chance factor that directly affect how their action proceeds.
Ex: Nexus

Other: Roles that have functions that do not apply to any of these categories.
Ex: Vanilla, Jack of All Trades, experimental roles>

**
Town: The town faction.
Scum: The scum faction.
Third-Party: Roles that have their own goal in the game or are associated with a faction that does not apply to the above.
Other: Rare. Includes roles without a win condition, sometimes the moderators of a game, or player roles that are intended for event purposes only.
  • Common Roles:
    Vanilla
    Role Type: Other
    The most common mafia role. This role has no unique function or power during the day or night. This role is usually among at least two other vanilla roles and used for game balance if associated with the town faction.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum
    Strategy: "Vanilla Townies"
    Examples: TBA

    Survivor
    Role Type: Other
    The Survivor's goal is to not die before another faction wins their win condition. This role can be considered the "Vanilla" third party role, as it has no special traits on its own; the role is usually combined with another power to assist the third party.
    Associated Faction: Third Party
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Cop (a.k.a. Seer)
    Role Type: Investigative
    At night, the Cop may target a player and discover what alignment the target is associated with. Results generally read as "Town" or "Scum", depending on the associated alignment. If the targeted player is a Third Party, the result will usually be one of "Third Party" or "Scum". Sometimes, a cop may have a "sanity", which affects the alignment that factions are associated with in reports (these are covered in the "Controversial" section.
    Associated Faction: Town
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Doctor
    Role Type: Defensive
    At night, the Doctor may protect a target. In normal circumstances, if another player attempts to kill the target, the kill fails because the target is protected. The Doctor cannot protect him or herself.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum (Uncommon)
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Vigilante
    Role Type: Offensive
    At night, the Vigilante may target a player to kill. The vigilante cannot target him or herself.
    Associated Faction: Town
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Gunsmith
    Role Type: Itemsmith, Offensive
    The Gunsmith may give one player a One-Shot Vigilante Kill during the night, which may be used the night after. Usually restricted in quantity. In rare cases, the gun may function instead as a One-Shot Desperado Kill.
    Associated Faction: Town
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Bulletproof
    Role Type: Defensive
    The Bulletproof can survive a single kill attempt during the night phase.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Mason and Mix Mason (a.k.a Monks)
    Role Type: Messaging
    Masons are players capable of speaking to each other during the night phase. These groups are usually restricted to pairs of two. Mason partners are usually informed that their partner is of the same alignment (Town). In some circumstances, Mason pairs may consist of different alignments; these are considered Mix Masons and are not common in setups. If the identities of the mason partners are not revealed in Nightchat, the pair is considered Anonymous. Scum roles and Third Parties are rarely Masoned together on account that the former already have a night chat and the latter are relatively small in number.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum, Third Party (Uncommon)
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    more roles TBA
  • Uncommon Roles:
    Uncommon roles are generally roles that are less expected than Common Roles, for better or worse. In terms of balance, these roles are generally harder to implement into setups.

    Desperado
    Role Type: Offensive
    The Desperado may publicly declare that he or she is shooting a player during the day. If the target is scum, the target is killed; however, if the target is town, the Desperado dies. Third parties are on occasion considered "scum" for this role.
    Associated Faction: Town
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Amputee Doctor
    Role Type: Defensive
    At night, the Doctor may protect a target. In normal circumstances, if another player attempts to kill the target, the kill fails because the target is protected. If the Doctor chooses to protect him or herself instead, he or she loses the ability to protect targets for the rest of the game.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum (Uncommon)
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Encrypter
    Role Type: Messaging
    The Encrypter allows the Scum team to communicate privately during the day. On death, the Scum team is restricted to their standard night communication only.
    Associated Faction: Scum
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Nexus
    Role Type: Redirection, Handicap (Town)
    The Nexus passively redirects any actions targeting him or herself to a random target. Kills are exempt from this rule for balance in order to allow for the Nexus to be killed at night.
    Not to be confused with the non-random Wormhole.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum, Third Party
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Wormhole
    Role Type: Redirection, Handicap (Town)
    The Wormhole actively redirects any actions targeting him or herself to a selected target. Kills are exempt from this rule for balance in order to allow for the Nexus to be killed at night.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum, Third Party
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Mirror
    Role Type: Redirection, Handicap (Town)
    The Mirror redirects all actions back to their source. Investigative reports will generally receive information about themselves by targeting a Mirror. Kills are exempt from this rule for balance in order to allow for the Mirror to be killed at night.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum, Third Party
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    More roles TBA.
  • Famous Roles:
    Crooks Hollow Desperado
    Role Type: Offensive
    The Crooks Hollow Desperado is a Desperado variant; unlike the traditional Desperado, this variant will kill its user and the target regardless of the targeted player's alignment.
    Associated Faction: Town, Scum
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: Any Crooks Hollow Mafia game

    Lord of the Pants
    Role Type: Political, Modifier
    The Lord of the Pants is a popular role that has been used in the Metamafia and Blendersongfia clusterfucks. During the day, the user may call to elect a player as "The Lord of the Dance". During this election, any living player may elect (in bold) a player to receive the title. If the Lord of the Pants wins this election, he wins his win condition. There may be certain setbacks if the Lord of the Pants is not elected or if another player is elected in his steed.
    What makes this role unique is that the role may influence the voting at night; the Lord of the Pants may target a player to anonymously steal his or her election vote during the day.
    Associated Faction: Third Party
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    More roles TBA
  • Controversial Roles:
    Please Note: Controversial Roles have effects or traits that are considered by members of the community to be anti-fun, game-breaking, or otherwise have a negative impact on how a game is played. See ChocolatePi's Seven Deadly Sins of Mafia Design for his philosophy on the subject.

    Silencer
    Role Type: Offensive, Political, Modifier
    The Silencer targets a player at night to silence. During the day, the targeted player cannot communicate in the topic post. Sometimes the targeted player is restricted from voting.
    Associated Faction: Scum
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Insane Cop
    Role Type: Investigative, Handicap
    This role is usually presented to the player as the "Cop" role, but delivers inverted information. If the targeted player is a part of the Town faction the Insane Cop receives a report identifying the player as "Scum", and if the targeted player is Scum the report states the player is "Town". If a Third Party role would normally be identified as a "Third Party" in the report, the report does not usually change. Otherwise, the Third Party role's alignment is inverted in the report to match the Town and Scum factions.
    Associated Faction: Town
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    Naive and Paranoid Cop
    Role Type: Handicap
    This role is usually presented to the player as the "Cop" role, but delivers useless information (and, as such, is not an Investigative role). Regardless of the target's alignment the Naive Cop will always receive reports that a targeted player is "Town" whereas the Paranoid Cop will always receive reports that a targeted player is "Scum".
    Associated Faction: Town
    Strategy: N/A
    Examples: TBA

    more roles TBA

-----------------

(Original Post)
To start, might we talk about Vanilla Townies?

(Next topic: "Fakeclaim Strategy as Scum: Filling the Blanks")

What is the most optimal way for them to contribute? How important are they? Is it better to have more vanillas than PR's in a setup? The downfalls/perks of the vanilla townie? And useless PR roles v.s. Vanilla roles; is having a useless ability as town better than being a vanilla?
Reply
10-03-2013, 01:08 PM
Post: #2
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
Get yourself nightkilled, try to hunt scum. Vanilla town, in a purely mechanical sense, don't have an optimal playstyle beyond general town-play. Sure, claiming/hinting at other roles might be a good method of getting yourself killed, but the end goal of a vanilla townie is to die and let the power roles have their fun. Of course, this does change in games where everyone is vanilla. Of special note is that a lot of the value of a vanilla town player is based around their own ability. If, for example, Beruru is a vanilla townie, she's a lot more valuable alive than me as a vanilla town player. So you can't just look at the mechanical goal of the role, which is to draw nightkills and hunt scum.

Personally, despite being atrocious at playing town, I feel free to take a lot more risks as vanilla town, as I assume that my dying isn't really too much of a negative. This could mean softclaiming a power role, being extremely zealous in pursuing a single scum suspect, or just general play that teeters on the brink between pro- and anti-town. This is obviously not how better players would play.

If you don't have more vanillas than power roles in your setup, youll need to compensate by strengthening the scumteam. I'm not sure it's strictly better to have a certain ratio of vanilla:PR, and there are some games where vanilla town are entirely absent, yet the game functions fine.

I guess useless power roles that only affect flavor are sort of preferable, just for entertainment value, but it would be best in such a case to give a member of the scumteam a flavor power as well, so as to not immediately mark everyone with a "useless" power as town. I'd play a painter role the exact same way as I'd play vanilla town, but I might have more fun with the painter role.
Reply
10-03-2013, 01:17 PM
Post: #3
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
(10-03-2013 12:51 PM)amosmyn Wrote:  What is the most optimal way for them to contribute? How important are they? Is it better to have more vanillas than PR's in a setup? The downfalls/perks of the vanilla townie? And useless PR roles v.s. Vanilla roles; is having a useless ability as town better than being a vanilla?

A vanilla's job is to be scary enough to die.

They need to be active, reasonably aggressive, and need to be trying the hardest amongst the town to find and lynch scum.

Ideally a vanilla town lynches scum and is on track towards the rest of them enough that scum forgo hunting power roles just for the sake of trying to get them out of the playing field.

Overall they need to be heavily involved in the game, vocal about their reads, willing to pursue lynches on scum and derail lynches on people they think are town. They need to be a thorn in the scumteam's side as much as they can manage.
Reply
10-03-2013, 11:20 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2013 11:23 PM by Mirdini.)
Post: #4
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
Might have more to say about this topic at a later date but for now just wanted to point out a couple of things

(10-03-2013 01:08 PM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  Of special note is that a lot of the value of a vanilla town player is based around their own ability. If, for example, Beruru is a vanilla townie, she's a lot more valuable alive than me as a vanilla town player. So you can't just look at the mechanical goal of the role, which is to draw nightkills and hunt scum.

Well no, you're as valuable alive as you make yourself! It's self-defeating to go 'oh I'm vanilla town and I'm not a "good" player so I'll just play crazily/not play at all because I'm not useful'. Of course you're not going to be "good" if you go into any game with that mindset. The point is to kick it up a notch and do your best to find scum and persuade the rest of the town to help you lynch 'em! Basically what Acio said.

That there are "good" players is mostly a myth, it's simply people who've had more practice than others and to an extent their written eloquence (some falling far into the former rather than the latter, I'm looking at you enigmatic bearlols <:P). Yes, eloquence and rhetoric have something to do with it but really a large part of the 'power' more experienced players have has to do with the reverential way people treat them thus making them "lynch-proof" far more than they should be. This is a tangent that might make a better future topic so I'll stop there.

Go into a vanilla townie role ready to lynch scum and die trying - if you get just one scum player lynched you've already disproportionately helped your team out, and if you draw the kill after that you've gotten the gold.


(10-03-2013 01:08 PM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  If you don't have more vanillas than power roles in your setup, youll need to compensate by strengthening the scumteam. I'm not sure it's strictly better to have a certain ratio of vanilla:PR, and there are some games where vanilla town are entirely absent, yet the game functions fine.

They might seem like they function fine but it's either dumb luck (Quarantine) or MOD LIBERTIES being taken (Metamaf). Games with solely power roles are called clusterfucks for a reason.

Again, more on the main vanilla townie topic at a later date possibly hopefully
Reply
10-04-2013, 12:47 AM
Post: #5
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
(10-03-2013 11:20 PM)Mirdini Wrote:  Might have more to say about this topic at a later date but for now just wanted to point out a couple of things

(10-03-2013 01:08 PM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  Of special note is that a lot of the value of a vanilla town player is based around their own ability. If, for example, Beruru is a vanilla townie, she's a lot more valuable alive than me as a vanilla town player. So you can't just look at the mechanical goal of the role, which is to draw nightkills and hunt scum.

Well no, you're as valuable alive as you make yourself! It's self-defeating to go 'oh I'm vanilla town and I'm not a "good" player so I'll just play crazily/not play at all because I'm not useful'. Of course you're not going to be "good" if you go into any game with that mindset. The point is to kick it up a notch and do your best to find scum and persuade the rest of the town to help you lynch 'em! Basically what Acio said.

That's not what I intended to say. My intent was to say that, because a vanilla town player is inherently less valuable than a power role, I can play less cautiously than I otherwise would. I certainly wasn't advocating being useless, but playing in a way that resembles scum strategy (or whatever bastard version thereof that I use) what with more tunneling, more attacking, and bolder statements in general.

Quote:That there are "good" players is mostly a myth, it's simply people who've had more practice than others and to an extent their written eloquence (some falling far into the former rather than the latter, I'm looking at you enigmatic bearlols <:P). Yes, eloquence and rhetoric have something to do with it but really a large part of the 'power' more experienced players have has to do with the reverential way people treat them thus making them "lynch-proof" far more than they should be. This is a tangent that might make a better future topic so I'll stop there.

Go into a vanilla townie role ready to lynch scum and die trying - if you get just one scum player lynched you've already disproportionately helped your team out, and if you draw the kill after that you've gotten the gold.

I'd argue that, since I'm bad at scumhunting and Ruru is good at it, she is more valuable alive for the simple fact that she is more likely to find scum. So she might play more cautiously than I would, because she isn't necessarily trying to bait the nightkill. This doesn't mean I don't have any value as living vanilla town, but that it's better for a good scumhunter to stay alive than it is for a bad scumhunter. With regard to lynchproof players, I think I may eventually end up just policy lynching cat.

Quote:
(10-03-2013 01:08 PM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  If you don't have more vanillas than power roles in your setup, youll need to compensate by strengthening the scumteam. I'm not sure it's strictly better to have a certain ratio of vanilla:PR, and there are some games where vanilla town are entirely absent, yet the game functions fine.

They might seem like they function fine but it's either dumb luck (Quarantine) or MOD LIBERTIES being taken (Metamaf). Games with solely power roles are called clusterfucks for a reason.

Again, more on the main vanilla townie topic at a later date possibly hopefully

Didn't butterscotchfia only have power roles, or am I forgetting things?
Reply
10-04-2013, 02:20 AM
Post: #6
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
I was under the impression (never modded anything) that the main difference between having lots of vanillas or just a few (or none at all) is in the difficulty of achieving balance. I mean, it seems logical that the more power roles you have, the more likely it is for us players to find a game breaking strategy.
Reply
10-04-2013, 02:25 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2013 02:53 AM by Mirdini.)
Post: #7
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
(10-04-2013 12:47 AM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  'd argue that, since I'm bad at scumhunting and Ruru is good at it, she is more valuable alive for the simple fact that she is more likely to find scum. So she might play more cautiously than I would, because she isn't necessarily trying to bait the nightkill. This doesn't mean I don't have any value as living vanilla town, but that it's better for a good scumhunter to stay alive than it is for a bad scumhunter.

I can see what you're getting at there but a. I'm not sure there's as much of a difference between 'good' and 'bad' scumhunters as you think there is and b. if the 'good' scumhunters try to stay back so they can find ALL THE SCUM they're not getting any scum in the meantime which is pretty much the worst thing they can do as vanilla town since if they've got a reputation they're likely to get shot anyway. If they're sufficiently 'good' at finding scum, are being shouty and have such a devastating reputation (hi Acio) they'll probably have a protective role sitting on them, so might as well ~make things happen~

tl;dr Acionyx's post up there says pretty much all I want to, and past beru is probably not the person you want to model your vanilla town play on/off of (current beru is actually being (somewhat?) active which I can only thumbs up to).

Not trying to shoot you down here necessarily, your insights are cool and this is a Good Thread for such discussion (I hope the sticky made it obvious, nice work Amos).

(10-04-2013 02:20 AM)OzTheWizard Wrote:  I was under the impression (never modded anything) that the main difference between having lots of vanillas or just a few (or none at all) is in the difficulty of achieving balance. I mean, it seems logical that the more power roles you have, the more likely it is for us players to find a game breaking strategy.

Yeah, pretty much. When you get to 'every townie has a confirmable night action/power role' the game is generally fundamentally broken since it's just a process of elimination mass claim away from outing all the scum in most situations. Even if that's not the case if every townie has a (working, I won't get into how bad 'broken' roles are) power role there's generally very little the scum can do to survive any sort of mass claim.

Note that I (and I think all of us so far) are talking about CLOSED setup non-competitive "Mario Party" style games (to refer to Chocopi's great article on competitive (what we usually think of as Hunt) set-up guidelines, though some of it is applicable to non-competitive games), obviously in the (far) more competitive hunt-style game everyone having some form power role is what should be the case (but those are open setup so you build anti-massclaim into the setup itself, which is hard to impossible to do properly with the closed non-competitive fun time style of game).

I guess this tangent was at least somewhat related to vanillas in setups.

(10-04-2013 12:47 AM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  Didn't butterscotchfia only have power roles, or am I forgetting things?

It did.

You should go read it again, because it certainly wasn't balanced in the slightest. Fun flavor? Sure, and it was a cool game from that angle, but scum were essentially doomed from the start (it just took us six-seven days to realize).

I mean you should know, you were on our team (and looking at the end of the thread you yourself said "Great flavor, loved my role, would play again, hopefully with a less unbalanced setup. "). The last three days were basically 'let's just list all the night actions and deduce who the scum are and then shoot them with all these daykills'.
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10-04-2013, 02:30 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2013 04:11 PM by GenetiXientist.)
Post: #8
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
Touché. I will say, however, that I didn't mean to link how ruru actually plays (or played) to my stating that good players might want to be slightly more cautious. They're points that are independent of one another, but I can see where "inactivity=caution" could be derived from what I said, which isn't what I meant to say at all! I meant being a bit less open about your reads, and not necessarily trying to have the most posts. What I'm trying to get at is that you (the general you, that is) have to make a judgment about your own effort and ability when thinking about whether you want to be very active or just moderately active, and I was substituting myself and Ruru for examples of bad and good scumhunters (a topic that might be worth discussing as part of a larger "good ways to scumhunt" type of discussion,) not trying to say "follow what I do/ruru does." If I had gotten what I meant across, you could have substituted, say, Sotek or yourself in Ruru's place and not changed the meaning of what I was saying; obviously, that's not the case.
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10-04-2013, 03:59 PM
Post: #9
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
if you want to play good beru play look at 2010-2011 beru that is a nice vanilla type of beru

the way cpi handles his "vanillas" (acolytes) could probably be done in non-hunts

instead of saying "x person is x role" it could be like "x role is in the setup"

so they have a fun inf, but besides that they are basically vanilla

you couldn't do a very specific role with it though, it would have to be "a doc is in the setup" "there's at least one investigative in this setup" etc

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
Reply
10-05-2013, 12:57 PM
Post: #10
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
I'm going to have to say that I'm mostly supportive of Acio's definition of How to Play Vanilla. Granted, as discussed, there are many different approaches you can take to being vanilla. The endgoal really should be to make yourself a big enough target that scum wants to kill you. That doesn't mean you should throw your life away nor does it mean that you're expendable.

See, as a vanilla, you want to contribute as best as you can to the success of your team. You want to be the guy that people expect to have a power role based on how interested you are in terms of the game flow. You don't even need to post in sizeable amounts! You just need to make sure that it is clear what you want, what you see, and privately consider what you are trying to suggest in terms of your identity.

It may be wise to attempt to calibrate your playstyle to suggest that you're something else, for example.

On the topic of using vanillas, I think that they're integral for a standard, balanced game of mafia. It prevents things from getting to ridiculous, naturally. One thing I'd like to see is a setup guarantee on the number of vanillas in the setup. It's a fairly good gauge, after all, of how hectic the background of a game can be. Hybrid setups are rarely ever seen around here.

Yes, there are exceptions. Games involving multiple active killing actions slanted towards the scum, for example, definitely benefit with having more PRs, namely to the tune of Backup/Deputy roles, and really might not need vanillas to pad the game.

And yeah, I'm a supporter of useless PRs. It makes players actually want to play the role even if it doesn't reward them. Lets face it, being able to contribute to what happens in the night, even if slightly, makes a mafia game more fun.
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10-06-2013, 07:29 AM
Post: #11
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Vanillas
Also for the sake of making these discussions acessible to people who arent involved with the history of our community might we refrain from general metastatements such as Beruru 2011? I dont oppose to the reference of old material, but the use of postlinks is appreciated.
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10-23-2013, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 10-23-2013 01:17 PM by amosmyn.)
Post: #12
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
Fakeclaim Strategy as Scum

How do you fakeclaim? How effective are premade fakeclaims? On-the-fly fakeclaims? What makes a good/bad fakeclaim? How easy do you feel it is to fakeclaim in closed setups?
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10-23-2013, 01:55 PM (This post was last modified: 10-23-2013 01:56 PM by ICan'tGiveCredit.)
Post: #13
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
1) You claim a role that isn't yours and places you in an advantageous position, ideally making you look town.

2) imo 50/50. There will be flaws where some townies can find them.

3) Works great for me mspa (it's better to plan it out than not)

4) a) One that is likely given the time (ex. don't claim doc on d1 or else town gets suspicious when you survive d2) and your position (it might be okay to claim some sort of tracker role. Role-cops are scant. You can make up results)

b) something that easily contradicts what has already been known and mostly proven.

5) Not easy at all :S
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10-23-2013, 02:25 PM
Post: #14
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
The major problem I find with setting up fakeclaims from really early on is that the instant something comes up that endangers that claim (such as a townie with the same/similar role dropping dead) you're kind of stuck hoping that nobody notices it. In addition, I've noticed that almost all claim dropping is done by scum hoping to show that by breadcrumbing they're totally town and there's no way scum would do it - town after all has no reason to hint at having an important role in most situations, unless they're a bulletproof trying to soak a kill or pulling some gambit (like Cat in All Stars Mafia).
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10-23-2013, 03:04 PM
Post: #15
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
As Palamedes has mentioned, breadcrumbing is not an effective means of providing roleclaim (fake or not) in the context of giving hints that you are a particular role.

However! If you reveal information through passive comments that may be read by a particular role as being relevant, they may contribute positively towards a claim.
example: saying "So I hear you're pretty fond of Jose, Michael" when suggesting that you know who Michael visited. Michael might read this as you being a tracker if it's valid information or otherwise may read it as you being meta if you're wrong.

I feel if you have a good grasp of how the flavour of a game is put together it is easy to produce a role when you need it on the fly that excuses your actions. The more creative the roles are in the game, the more willing people are going to buy into your roleclaim. Having said that, it's important to know how to back yourself up when claiming.

example: You claim Cop. As scum (and town are aware of this) you know everyone's alignment and by saying that a particular person is scum who has not flipped you need to be in the position to be ready to support yourself if the person dies. Simply stating that there's a framer isn't going to fly easily, because Town will expect scum to simply do that and hope for the best. It's more effective when there is already discussion about the existence of a framer; perhaps you have a framer on your team and he flipped dead after some of your investigations, for example? The more give you provide yourself, the better. Cop is a very difficult role to claim as scum and I do not recommend fakeclaiming it without a very strong reason to do so. It may seem like the easy route but it virtually guarantees that you will be lynched on a variety of grounds that I have not covered if you make it alive past the first day you have claimed.
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10-23-2013, 03:16 PM
Post: #16
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(10-23-2013 02:25 PM)Palamedes Wrote:  In addition, I've noticed that almost all claim dropping is done by scum hoping to show that by breadcrumbing they're totally town and there's no way scum would do it - town after all has no reason to hint at having an important role in most situations, unless they're a bulletproof trying to soak a kill or pulling some gambit (like Cat in All Stars Mafia).

Disagree sort of

Town claim drop all the time it's just that it's hardly ever carefully done. Town tend to want to help and tend to be excited about what they are and ultimately don't mind super hard if it becomes public knowledge

But yes the careful breadcrumbing stuff tends more towards scum because they want to be able to "prove" themselves but they desperately don't want to /have/ to do so.
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10-23-2013, 03:27 PM
Post: #17
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
That's kind of what I mean Acio, town usually only hint at their roles shortly before they full on claim (or do something that might as well be a claim), because they don't want scum to figure out what they might be until they have some sort of conclusive evidence (and I know first hand how hard it is to hide the fact that you've done something to nail scum thanks to your role).

As for amos' point, I agree that that's a much more effective way of hinting at your role, but it comes with the problem that it usually only works with regards to a single person (and if you're making it up such as your tracker example or a similar cop example), so it won't really help you convince the entirety of the town, and it's also just a whole lot more difficult to do and so you don't see it effectively working out very often. So I'd say unless you have a role that can provide you with actual info that would help you with your fakeclaim (so basically claiming your role but as town), the effort is unlikely to pay off in any meaningful way.
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10-23-2013, 03:56 PM
Post: #18
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(10-23-2013 03:27 PM)Palamedes Wrote:  That's kind of what I mean Acio, town usually only hint at their roles shortly before they full on claim (or do something that might as well be a claim), because they don't want scum to figure out what they might be until they have some sort of conclusive evidence (and I know first hand how hard it is to hide the fact that you've done something to nail scum thanks to your role).

As for amos' point, I agree that that's a much more effective way of hinting at your role, but it comes with the problem that it usually only works with regards to a single person (and if you're making it up such as your tracker example or a similar cop example), so it won't really help you convince the entirety of the town, and it's also just a whole lot more difficult to do and so you don't see it effectively working out very often. So I'd say unless you have a role that can provide you with actual info that would help you with your fakeclaim (so basically claiming your role but as town), the effort is unlikely to pay off in any meaningful way.

On the first point, I would say that town, just like scum, may want to make themselves look like themselves or someone else (Vanillas rarely act like vanillas). The gag may just be that they want the scum to figure themselves out since scum are just as capable as town as far as figuring out implications via breadcrumbing.

On the second point I argue on the contrary: you convince one, maybe two, and they may blindly assist you in at the very least keeping you alive or otherwise supporting your side of the case. The point isn't to convince one person but to convince several in the long run. If you have enough of a defense against those who don't agree with your claim you're at the very least likely to survive a lynch or otherwise have the time to pressure another target. The case isn't always going to involve conditions as per my example that are concrete, but it's not difficult to create implied evidence that you can throw away if it doesn't suit your claim.

e.g. Using the same comment I mentioned earlier, I can later explain its meaning as something relevant to another context. Likewise if I made a comment phrased such as "Nice hat, Jack", Jack might suspect that I'm implying that I have saved, checked, or watched him/her depending on what has happened before, possibly due in case of an item. Because I'm implying that I have evidence and am directing it towards a person I can imply that I have gradually built a case and have made subtle hints to the people who are involved. Simply trying to hint that you have a role and hinting that you have specific evidence are very different.

A critical point on this variety of breadcrumbing: if you are making implications directed towards a particular role you are in fear of as scum, you might draw their attention towards yourself for better or worse. Perhaps you want to protect the killer from being tracked or the BP from being revealed as a no-visiting role.

I have never made a fakeclaim that people did not end up believing. I feel it is incredibly easy to make a fake role based on flavour (provided that the flavour isn't biased towards a faction) in a closed setup because of the lack of contradictory evidence. Expressing apology and confusion help support these claims too if you're in a situation where your role is starting to make less sense. Letting your attackers feel like they are in a better position than you is sometimes fairly effective at making things seem unusual to the point where you can save yourself from a lynch.
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10-24-2013, 07:56 AM (This post was last modified: 10-24-2013 08:05 AM by anacreon.)
Post: #19
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
I actually set up a bunch of possible claims base on the flavor an a few flips basically day 3 is when i have my fake claims set up. Keeping in mind my playstyle isn't that great but it is my play style.

Another thing to keep in mind are roles that are common in the meta of the community you play with.
Our Community for example: bullet proofs are used enough that they are a viable fake claim but they are uncommon enough that a counter claim might not happen. You also should fake claim based on your own meta.

A question ask your self is: Based on my own meta, how likely is it that i will be checked by an info role?
and try to work a fake claim on if you are likely to be caught visiting some one or if it is just a simple alignment check.

[Image: sonicsig2.jpg]
Steam
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10-24-2013, 08:35 AM
Post: #20
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
Bulletproof reads neither as town or scum but makes you a vigilante target.
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10-25-2013, 07:24 AM
Post: #21
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
Step 1: No cop in setup.
Step 2: Claim cop.
Step 3: Lose to 3P anyway.

Nightside 2 was awesome =D
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10-25-2013, 04:18 PM
Post: #22
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(10-25-2013 07:24 AM)A Killer Cuppa Tea Wrote:  Step 1: No cop in setup.
Step 2: Claim cop.
Step 3: Lose to 3P anyway.

Nightside 2 was awesome =D

agreed ;o

"We love eloquence for its own sake, and not for any truth which it may utter, or any heroism it may inspire."
-Henry David Thoreau
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10-25-2013, 04:44 PM
Post: #23
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
both nightside games were absolutely hilarious

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
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11-01-2013, 12:26 PM
Post: #24
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
Credit in GGfia was an example of how not to fakeclaim
1. Claim cop in a game with no cop
2. Claim silenced in a game that has no silencers
3.Claim a guilty on someone who was driven with a dead townie
4. Get lynched.
5. ????
6. Profit!

dC Wrote:donut is A FILTHY TRAITOR unreliable
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11-01-2013, 12:30 PM
Post: #25
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(10-23-2013 02:25 PM)Palamedes Wrote:  pulling some gambit (like Cat in All Stars Mafia).

which gambit
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11-01-2013, 01:48 PM
Post: #26
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
claiming a role that doesnt exist in the game is actually pretty safe though. you dont have anyone to refute you.

[Image: tumblr_mh86y3O6W41s18haxo1_500.png]
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11-01-2013, 01:58 PM
Post: #27
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(11-01-2013 01:48 PM)MARGATROID Wrote:  claiming a role that doesnt exist in the game is actually pretty safe though. you dont have anyone to refute you.

AND YET SOMEONE STILL DID rage flips over table burns down village
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11-01-2013, 03:45 PM
Post: #28
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(11-01-2013 01:48 PM)MARGATROID Wrote:  claiming a role that doesnt exist in the game is actually pretty safe though. you dont have anyone to refute you.

they can always refute you with bullet

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
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11-01-2013, 04:35 PM
Post: #29
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
I think more important than anything else is that as scum you must utterly OWN your claim. be as open and "frank" as possible about it. Do not beat around the bush, do not magic bag it. If you have to claim it's probably a good idea to just out and claim completely with full details of whatever your claims going to be, as you're most likely just stalling for time until your inevitable demise.

Do not be vague. Do not require people to ask you like fifty fucking questions when you claim. This'll only convince them you're stalling.

Do not give the impression you're stalling.

They will kill you for it.
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11-01-2013, 04:43 PM
Post: #30
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
Try very freaking hard to make sure your claim is mechanically sound. The amount of info that scum has that can be converted into fakeclaims after just n1 is pretty staggering: scum can claim pretty much any basic info role, at the very least. The single best fakeclaim I've ever made was informed town on someone who I knew was not scum. After that person took advantage of being "confirmed" by me, they began to lead the town, justifying a scumkill on that person on a basic level and making my claim appear far more solid on a meta level.

Essentially, try not to claim things that you can't fake.
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11-01-2013, 11:25 PM
Post: #31
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
As Para said, you need to be firm when fakeclaiming. The less assumptions you make thhe better your claim will hold water especially if someone tries to contradict you. You need a PLAN if you believe there may be holes to be plugged in your claim.

Claiming roles that arent in the game is okay, but like, dont claim uncommon things in a generic setup and dont claim to be inflicted by something (silenced) unless its true or otherwise possible in game reality as oneshot.

Dont claim roles that cannot exist in the game, roles that guarantee your lynch or otherwise are considered taboo, such as cultists, silencers, bodystackers or serial killers. Most of us do not promote the use of a Silencer

GGfia is a good example of when not to claim. If you arent being provoked t roleclaim, have nothing protown to bring to the table and directly contradict someone elses role, you are going to get lynched in most scenarios.

Also claiming doctor as scum is a bad idea for future reference because there's little reason for you not to be targeted for NK: if the doctor is dead, scum can generally kill whoever they want provided they arent BP. This is why doctors usually dont claim their role, as its fairly counterproductive.
As town, if someone claims doctor and survives a night for someone who wasnt obviously going to be NKd the claimed doctor is probably scum.

Hi GGmafSpeedchuck. :P I dont know how you lived so long. All hail the wine gods.
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11-02-2013, 12:29 AM
Post: #32
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(11-01-2013 12:30 PM)Cat Wrote:  which gambit

The one that got you shot by scum instead of your jailer mason.
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11-02-2013, 04:11 AM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2013 04:13 AM by OzTheWizard.)
Post: #33
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
Here's my two cents.

A fake claim is obviously going to be better if planned in advance, since then you can react properly in certain situations (like defend people you're going to claim you cop checked as innocent at the appropiate time, show some hostility towards those you're goin to claim you vig killed.)

(10-23-2013 02:25 PM)Palamedes Wrote:  The major problem I find with setting up fakeclaims from really early on is that the instant something comes up that endangers that claim (such as a townie with the same/similar role dropping dead) you're kind of stuck hoping that nobody notices it.
Yeah, the sooner you start planning your fake claim, the more likely it'll be that something will pop up that will make the claim suspicious. Incidentally, this is why fake claiming in closed setups is much more complicated, not only do you have to think your claim through, you have to guess the setup for the claim to be viable.

But that's why you're supposed to be subtle about it, if it suddenly doesn't fit, the poeple who might have noticed your hint should be able to second guess whether they were over thinking a random statement as a hint. And then you move on to your second fake claim. Of course, if you don't have a plan B, then doing it on the fly is plan B.

The advantage of doing it on the fly is that you can fit in actual facts, but then you have to worry about whether your reactions actually match your supposed actions. Of course, this is easy to screw up, because while you focus on your aggresive reaction being appropiate for a check, you end up claiming you checked someone you were planning to lynch anyway (actual cops don't want to waste checks.)

(10-24-2013 08:35 AM)amosmyn Wrote:  Bulletproof reads neither as town or scum but makes you a vigilante target.
I don't quite get this, why would a vigilante want to waste time with a bulletproof? Sure, if the claim is fake maybe they'll die, but if it isn't then you're wasting a shot while gaining little. At least "He didn't lie about being bp" is not as good as "this person flipped X" in my book.

(11-01-2013 04:43 PM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  The single best fakeclaim I've ever made was informed town on someone who I knew was not scum.
This one has the low but real (and hilarious) risk of putting your life in the hands of a third party.
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11-02-2013, 04:33 AM
Post: #34
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(11-02-2013 04:11 AM)OzTheWizard Wrote:  
(10-24-2013 08:35 AM)amosmyn Wrote:  Bulletproof reads neither as town or scum but makes you a vigilante target.
I don't quite get this, why would a vigilante want to waste time with a bulletproof? Sure, if the claim is fake maybe they'll die, but if it isn't then you're wasting a shot while gaining little. At least "He didn't lie about being bp" is not as good as "this person flipped X" in my book.

In this case I'm assuming the vig can shoot every night. A vig normally will not shoot in the night unless there's a good reason to do so. Shooting a claimed BP verifies whether or not the claim is legitimate and, with no survival reports in Closed Setups, does not inform scum unless the player is scum sided. The vig doesn't have to claim thereafter of shooting the BP, and the scum still think that the BP has not been shot unless the BP reports being shot.

Shooting a BP claim results in verification of a claim benefiting town slightly more than scum. It is a good move in my opinion regardless of the targeted BP's alignment for a town vig to shoot a claimed BP. And if the BP isn't a BP it's probably scum and gives town a benefit.

Personally, I think it's better if a vig doesn't shoot than does shoot more often than not given the opprotunity to do so, so I don't really understand the concept of wasting a bullet.
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11-02-2013, 04:49 AM
Post: #35
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
The mafia not knowing whether the bp was shot isn't that important (ignoring meta like the bp person being someone they expect to catch them) since if the BP is Town then they want to beat this player in particular by overrun instead of night kill. Incidentally, this is why it would be a good option for a town power role to fake claim bp. Your reasoning would really ruin it though.
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11-02-2013, 04:52 AM
Post: #36
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(11-02-2013 04:11 AM)OzTheWizard Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 04:43 PM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  The single best fakeclaim I've ever made was informed town on someone who I knew was not scum.
This one has the low but real (and hilarious) risk of putting your life in the hands of a third party.

Yes, but what it does is link my alignment to that person's, with a low chance of it backfiring. The benefits are pretty numerous, ranging from not having to come up with a fakeclaim ever again, to being thought of as town if your target dies, to making town likely to lynch the person you're ardently defending if you die and flip scum. Of course, you have to play like an informed town who has revealed themselves.

Yes, I'm aware that I just sabotaged my chances of this ever working for me.
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11-02-2013, 07:02 AM
Post: #37
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
(11-02-2013 04:49 AM)OzTheWizard Wrote:  The mafia not knowing whether the bp was shot isn't that important (ignoring meta like the bp person being someone they expect to catch them) since if the BP is Town then they want to beat this player in particular by overrun instead of night kill. Incidentally, this is why it would be a good option for a town power role to fake claim bp. Your reasoning would really ruin it though.

Yeah, I suppose a town PR claiming BP would be fairly beneficial.
I don't mean to say its not a good claim but I do feel like a vig would put a BP into his dossier depending on his day comm?

Wine and all. A lot of this talk seems very reaction based.
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11-13-2013, 08:32 AM
Post: #38
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Fakeclaim as Scum
NEW TOPIC: Messaging Roles

What kind of impact does a messaging role have on a setup? These include two-person communications such as jailers, masons, lovers as well as 3+ person nightchats, one-way and two-way messenger roles, and any other role that provides communication between multiple persons. What is your opinion on eavesdropping roles that secretly listen in on these conversations? What do you feel makes the difference between anonymous communication between two parties and "revealed identity" communication? How do messaging roles impact gameplay?

This discussion is intended to dip more into how out-of-topic communication affects mafia gameplay than the tangental perks and/or problems of such communication (i.e. the roleblocking effect commonly associated with a jailing target), but feel free to discuss its impact as well, particularly in the realm of how it affects the decision making process of selecting targets to communicate with.
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11-13-2013, 10:41 AM
Post: #39
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
Also, I've just implemented some basic terminology on role terms. Feel free to comment on that. Keep in mind that it is expanding and is not complete; I am not looking for additions to it until it covers much more ground.
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11-14-2013, 06:29 AM
Post: #40
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
I like messaging roles that don't guarantee a coalignment like masons and lovers usually do. It just allows for more shenanigans. And shenanigans are great!

When I first started playing mafia over on the Court Records forums we were all allowed to private message each other, and while that was a slight bit game-breaking, there was a lot more depth to the game. Not that every game should allow private communication to that extent, but that opportunities for depth like that to be offered.

Anonymous messaging is not as fun, however. It doesn't really hold the messenger accountable for what they're doing, and the point of the anonymity is usually diluted a bit because you can rule out certain persons by typing style, etc.

"We love eloquence for its own sake, and not for any truth which it may utter, or any heroism it may inspire."
-Henry David Thoreau
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11-14-2013, 06:37 AM
Post: #41
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
(11-14-2013 06:29 AM)Mister Visceral Wrote:  I like messaging roles that don't guarantee a coalignment like masons and lovers usually do. It just allows for more shenanigans. And shenanigans are great!

The issue with that is that scum having messenger roles is generally all or nothing

Either they're capable of the shenanigans and they consistently confuse town to hell and back or they're not, in which case the role usually ends up useless or a hindrance since all it really does there is confirm that the person is a messenger (which isn't exactly a role anyone is going to panic over lynching)

That and a lack of alignment guarantee automatically puts people on alert so they have to be good at using it or they get attention that they don't need
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11-14-2013, 09:06 AM
Post: #42
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
I had a scum-aligned communications role in Radiotower Mafia that included two anonymous messaging powers. That was an interesting series of events to watch unfold - despite the player in question going inactive and promptly getting thrown under the bus in a failed fakeclaim, the replacement talked their way out of a lynch with the help of the content and use of one message power deployed on Night One.

The few times I've had or been affected by messenger-style roles as well were entertaining themselves, but I never feel I've made full use of those scenarios. Library of Lies only helped me get some info that was made public the next morning anyway, and the three-man party in Crooks Hollow made me trust town-leading scum to the point of becoming an unintended kamikaze for the enemy.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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11-14-2013, 09:42 AM
Post: #43
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
Too many comm roles on town's side will kill the game.
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11-14-2013, 10:20 AM
Post: #44
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
The most fun is when you have two scum traitors anonymously masoned to eachother.
But that's happened once and now people expect it. Sorry guys. :P
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11-15-2013, 08:18 AM
Post: #45
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
You know the perfect example of this was that one game where there were crystals that turned people into animals as a mechanic that silenced them but gave them a qt to talk in.

I cant find that game. That was an interesting game.

[Image: sonicsig2.jpg]
Steam
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11-15-2013, 02:10 PM
Post: #46
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
except it involved silencing so that is ng. i vaguely remember that one, i think.

[Image: tumblr_mh86y3O6W41s18haxo1_500.png]
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11-15-2013, 02:25 PM
Post: #47
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
I think Library of Lies did it.

Speaking of which.

(05-14-2013 05:47 PM)Eidolonic Wrote:  Silent mafia. You can't speak, only use hand gestures.

Imagine the chaotic, frantic gesticulating.

Now imagine if there were a bunch of town messaging roles that could only emote hand gestures or make gifs of themselves with their webcams. Oh the beauty.
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11-15-2013, 02:41 PM
Post: #48
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
I seem to end up in a lot of masonings in mafia and I've never really managed to use them to good effect. What other uses are there besides having someone reveal info for you and/or setting a definite target for you to try and murder before they murder you.
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11-15-2013, 02:50 PM
Post: #49
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
a masonry gives you a far better read on your specific partner. that is a lot more significant in setups where you arent guaranteed to be the same faction. by factor of just getting all that extra talking from them, you have more to analyze. additionally, much like a good mafia coordinates their posts together, you get that option too. intentionally looking co-aligned or not is a gambit thats a lot easier to pull off when you have someone whos in on it. AND, youre essentially a voting bloc as well which generally makes pushing lynches easier. masons are a very powerful role and i personally shy away from using them for that reason.

[Image: tumblr_mh86y3O6W41s18haxo1_500.png]
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11-16-2013, 07:24 AM
Post: #50
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
(11-15-2013 08:18 AM)anacreon Wrote:  You know the perfect example of this was that one game where there were crystals that turned people into animals as a mechanic that silenced them but gave them a qt to talk in.

I cant find that game. That was an interesting game.

It was Sotek's game, where I was Felicia and got daykilled on the first day for leading town and being extremely vocal thanks Watts <3
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