Mechanics and Analysis
11-16-2013, 07:42 AM
Post: #51
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
(11-15-2013 02:10 PM)MARGATROID Wrote:  except it involved silencing so that is ng. i vaguely remember that one, i think.

Wasn't really a problem since it avoided the usual silencer awfulness; everyone transformed was announced, iirc it didn't stop them from voting, and it could be ended (as long as you had crystals or someone willing to use on on you)

As far as the mechanic went with coms role stuff: I think it didn't exactly work out because the primary strength of communication roles is conspiring secretly. "Hey you smash a crystal with me so we can talk" isn't exactly subtle though I guess you could play wine games with it
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11-16-2013, 09:44 AM (This post was last modified: 11-16-2013 09:45 AM by MARGATROID.)
Post: #52
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
right and the fact that it included silencing is why it couldnt be done privately. since if you just say "all these people are silenced, not explaining why" the town freaks the hell out. and obviously you cant just let the fact that theyre silenced go unstated, because of the problems with that in general. so even though it wasnt a total silencing, the fact that it included silencing at all sorta ruined it.

[Image: tumblr_mh86y3O6W41s18haxo1_500.png]
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11-18-2013, 09:46 AM
Post: #53
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
I think messaging roles are the most powerful info roles in the game. They have an unrestricted potential of providing the user a large quantity of information simply because people tend to be very, very honest to messaging roles. Yeah, people lie to them, but it's a lot easier to pick that up in messaging chats than outside of them.

But on the "townfirmed communicators" side of things, I feel that it's a strong motivator for both parties to be strong town players.
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11-18-2013, 08:23 PM
Post: #54
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Messaging Roles
we still have another role that falls under this category PM from dersehunt and roles similar to that, a Mail person kind of role. Where it isnt a masoning but rather a single message that can be sent to the persons choosing.

[Image: sonicsig2.jpg]
Steam
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12-02-2013, 09:25 AM
Post: #55
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Busdriving and Redirection
Busdriving and Redirection

How do redirecting roles impact games? What's the difference between redirectors and busdriving in terms of power and strategy? What's your opinion on Nexus and Mirror roles (see OP for definitions)? What's the gameplay difference between a town redirector/busdriver and a scum one? Do you think redirection roles are good for closed setups? Why or why not?
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12-03-2013, 01:55 PM
Post: #56
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Busdriving and Redirection
The big thing with redirectors is that they are really powerful in that protection can be bypassed very easily. As well as well as giving a cop a fake result if you can predict where that check is going to go.

doubletake mafia is a good example of the scum team using the busdriver to bypass protection for each kill. They also gave a cop an innocent result on a scum member.

[Image: sonicsig2.jpg]
Steam
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07-04-2014, 03:13 PM
Post: #57
RE: Mafia Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Busdriving and Redirection
Hey, we're back to our regular scheduled programming:

PROTECTIVE ROLES

Doctors, Bodyguards, Bulletproofs, Blacksmiths, Lynchproof. How do they impact a game? Have you heard of the "cop claims doc protects" game-breaking tactic? Usefulness of a blacksmith? Opinions on Scum Doctors? Opinions on Lynchproofs? How should Blacksmith roles be used in games, since a vanilla blacksmith is often considered OP?

Blacksmith - A role that hands out a 1-shot bulletproof at night.
Bodyguard - May die in his night-target's place, sometimes with a chance factor involved.
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07-04-2014, 03:24 PM
Post: #58
RE: Mechanic Discussion and Analysis: Protective Roles
I don't really like Lynchproofs.

Lynch is town's only real weapon, and never been a fan of things that mess with it.

If you want it to function as a soft townfirm as claimed, there are other roles that are more elegant in that regard.

Doc is fine. Slap a roleblocker on scumteam, conventional, good to go.

Bodyguard + Bulletproof type thing is fine.

I like Jailers, too. Gives town a strong protective role, and a strong endgame roleblock without letting you chain protect an outed investigative because...roleblock.

Blacksmith is eh. If it was a 1-shot, and the bulletproof lasted all game, sure I guess? I like Gunsmith more than Blacksmith as a role, though.

Scum doc can work, especially in games with a SK, I suppose. Scum Doc, Town Jailer + Bulletproof-or-Bodyguard in a larger setup? Makes claim analysis not default to 'doc claims are town', since roleblocker claiming town jailer could be a thing, too, etc.
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12-15-2014, 05:06 PM
Post: #59
RE: Mechanic Discussion and Analysis
Hey everyone!

This topic is now going to be open for general discussion on the topic of Mafia and its mechanics, etc.
This topic was previously reserved with specific topics, but I feel that it makes more sense for it to be an open, general chat of sorts on the subject.

Remember! Do not discuss games currently in progress or bring up topics/discussion that may interfere with ongoing games! It is strictly forbidden!

So yeah, treat this topic as a Q&A of sorts.
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02-02-2015, 03:41 PM
Post: #60
RE: Mechanic Discussion and Analysis
If anyone would like to write in some stuff for the OP please feel free to whip up a draft and post it here. It will, of course, be subject to community discussion and future edits.
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02-03-2015, 02:50 PM
Post: #61
RE: Mechanic Discussion and Analysis
what do you mean by "stuff?"

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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02-03-2015, 04:29 PM
Post: #62
RE: Mechanic Discussion and Analysis
Role definitions mostly, but also how to play stuff, mechanics, priority lists, whatever.
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12-03-2015, 08:24 AM
Post: #63
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Care to talk about where priority lists are super helpful? I mean, clarity is good, but roles pretty much do what they say they will do.

Redirection takes place before targeting because it has to.
Roleblocking takes place before anything else because it has to.

There are other roles that do things like this, but most roles can take place simultaneously, right?
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12-03-2015, 08:47 AM
Post: #64
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Here's a scenario:
A role that redirects a visitor to a random target is targeted by a roleblocker.

Not to mention simultaneousness is not always enforced.
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12-03-2015, 09:07 AM
Post: #65
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
(12-03-2015 08:24 AM)speedchuck Wrote:  Care to talk about where priority lists are super helpful? I mean, clarity is good, but roles pretty much do what they say they will do.

Redirection takes place before targeting because it has to.
Roleblocking takes place before anything else because it has to.

There are other roles that do things like this, but most roles can take place simultaneously, right?

This game is a convincing argument in favor of priority lists.
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12-03-2015, 09:15 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2015 09:18 AM by speedchuck.)
Post: #66
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
(12-03-2015 08:47 AM)amosmyn Wrote:  Here's a scenario:
A role that redirects a visitor to a random target is targeted by a roleblocker.

Not to mention simultaneousness is not always enforced.
Ooh. That sounds fun. How is priority determined in these situations? I mean, I know it is the list, but what sort of factors are used by the mod to determine the outcome of the list?

Edit: Holy Carp GX those busdrivers
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12-03-2015, 09:25 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2015 09:25 AM by dichotomousCreator.)
Post: #67
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Random unrelated thought spurred by the massclaim clause in that game:

There was messing around with anti-massclaim rules and obliterators for a while and I believe this was ultimately scrapped because of swinginess and the fact that it completely killed a lot of discussion, right?

So what if the scumteam had an option to render people vanilla by matching their role to their player instead? Like a targeted sabotage thing? So claiming doesn't make you an outright liability but it DOES weaken you by stripping the role you just claimed (this also makes mechanical verification MUCH more difficult, if not outright impossible)

I mean this is probably moot because the current WH solution of "roles and alignment are separate" works really well, but it might be useful for flavour-based games where a lot of characters are locked to a side (e.g. Dersehunt)

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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12-03-2015, 09:45 AM
Post: #68
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Dersehunt had Doc Scratch, right? That'd ruin massclaims I think.
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12-03-2015, 10:14 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2015 10:15 AM by Vancho1.)
Post: #69
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
(12-03-2015 08:47 AM)amosmyn Wrote:  Here's a scenario:
A role that redirects a visitor to a random target is targeted by a roleblocker.

Not to mention simultaneousness is not always enforced.

One would need to decide then whether roleblocks happen before or after redirections. If the redirection happens first, then the roleblock is redirected (this decision makes the redirector essentially untargetable by any action). Otherwise, nothing happens (the redirection is cancelled). This would be a conscious decision by the GM to avoid confusion during the game.

Of course, you could have it both ways - the roleblock is redirected, but any subsequent roles which target the passive redirector go through.

As for simultaneity, well, that doesn't physically exist anyway ;)

The one, the only, Vancho!
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12-03-2015, 10:32 AM
Post: #70
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
(12-03-2015 09:45 AM)speedchuck Wrote:  Dersehunt had Doc Scratch, right? That'd ruin massclaims I think.

Yeah, Doc was an obliterator. I saw CPi mention in one place that they kill discussion too heavily and are cumbersome as a result, plus extremely swingy and 3Ps ALREADY have a host of problems. Credithunt was an improvement b/c foreclosure cost $$$ and was a scumteam ability but I was wondering about the viability of measures that don't kill the target

I guess the issue there is that a massclaim still forces CCs and reduces the game pretty hard...in Credithunt, for example, the scumteam is pinned to six people (the actual team and whoever they CC'd) plus any info that can be gleaned from the CCing process itself, which might be a worthy tradeoff for town losing all their abilities.

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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12-03-2015, 11:18 AM
Post: #71
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
(12-03-2015 10:32 AM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  Credithunt was an improvement b/c foreclosure cost $$$ and was a scumteam ability but I was wondering about the viability of measures that don't kill the target
It didn't cost anything unless we made a mistake

I loved it.
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12-03-2015, 12:17 PM
Post: #72
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Yeah it was generally considered overkill but vanillizing might be kind of underkill (since massclaim is still situationally positive). Some kind of explicit slippery slope mechanic might work (e.g. vanillizing that turns into an obliteration after two successes) but again this is largely meh because of the "any role can have any alignment" technology.

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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12-03-2015, 04:14 PM
Post: #73
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
I'm grateful to GX for linking that because I just reread my mspaf forum signature again and ???

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
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12-03-2015, 06:45 PM
Post: #74
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
I though GX was gonna link to the chaos that is busdriverfia

[Image: sonicsig2.jpg]
Steam
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12-03-2015, 07:32 PM
Post: #75
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Same

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
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12-03-2015, 07:33 PM
Post: #76
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
There were 2 of them on the MSPAforums, this was the sequel.
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12-04-2015, 02:32 AM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2016 07:10 AM by reaverb.)
Post: #77
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Late to the party but the main reason "Town and scum have different roles" encourages massclaims is that each Town role has to be specifically CC'd. "Removing their powers" doesn't change the fact every townie in the game either townfirmed themselves or caused a 1 in 2.

Like "replacing every vanilla Townie with a Vampire Hunter with a different name" is probably a stronger town than any non-role madness game played here (assuming every role name is known before the game begins).
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12-04-2015, 05:36 AM
Post: #78
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
(12-03-2015 04:14 PM)beruru Wrote:  I'm grateful to GX for linking that because I just reread my mspaf forum signature again and ???

ahahaha

i read it all again and it was a good laugh :)
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12-04-2015, 08:05 AM
Post: #79
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
I miss my huge collection of watts quotes
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12-04-2015, 09:07 AM
Post: #80
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
(12-04-2015 02:32 AM)reaverb Wrote:  Late to the party but the main reason "Town and scum have different roles" encourage s massclaims is that each Town role has to be specifically CC'd. "Removing their powers" doesn't change the dact every townie in the gane either townfirmed themselves or caused a 1 in 2.

Like "instead of vanilla towine every player was a differently named vampire hunter" is probably a stronger town than any non-role madness game played here.

Yeah this is the conclusion I reached thinking about it.

...say, could a "role" exist that has different powers and flavour as town vs. as scum? I'm mostly trying to figure out how flavour hunts can exist. So taking Dersehunt as an example you get a card that says "John if town and Slick if scum". Or just there are unique scum-only roles but every scum gets dealt a town role that's therefore safe to claim. (Mechanical confirm issues pop up but that might be a design issue rather than a ruleset one)

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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12-04-2015, 09:09 AM
Post: #81
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Some games give scum players fakeclaims to use
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12-04-2015, 10:54 AM
Post: #82
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Yeah, you could give them fakeclaims, and you could also have 'roles' that are asymmetrical.

(For instance, Caphriel made a mini-hunt where there's a role that, if town, reveals if it's coaligned with another player when lynched. If scum, it has an identical-looking reveal, but the person with the role gets to choose the result.)
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12-04-2015, 02:47 PM
Post: #83
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Sotek, I'm PLAYING in that mini-hunt and that role just went off :V

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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12-04-2015, 04:45 PM
Post: #84
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
yes, it did

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
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12-04-2015, 05:24 PM
Post: #85
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
yes. it. did.

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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12-04-2015, 05:25 PM
Post: #86
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
Does anything really "happen"?
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12-04-2015, 05:43 PM
Post: #87
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
.......

well, SOMETHING evidently happened

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
Reply
12-04-2015, 07:05 PM
Post: #88
RE: Mechanics and Analysis
(12-04-2015 02:47 PM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  Sotek, I'm PLAYING in that mini-hunt and that role just went off :V

I'm aware. :V
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