Complete FTL Mafia - Your Eternal Reward [MAFIA VICTORY]
02-02-2015, 11:04 AM
Post: #151
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-02-2015 08:11 AM)GenetiXientist Wrote:  If he's the scummiest person alive, I have 2 questions:

1: What changed from Post 128 that makes him suddenly super scummy as opposed to just new?

2: Why aren't you voting for him?

1: Nothing changed. I was clarifying my earlier point. Note that it's day 1 -- scummiest doesn't mean super scummy.

2: What difference would it make? We're not trying to push through the lynch. Why would my vote be needed?

(02-02-2015 10:29 AM)Palamedes Wrote:  Lynch: Goomba

Hi human scum. What is my problem with 140?

I don't know, you tell me. I can't read your mind.
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02-02-2015, 11:13 AM
Post: #152
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-02-2015 08:29 AM)Callistic Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 08:25 AM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  Acio's answer is the information I wanted: what the general trend for roles like that is in closed setups! Plus I might have missed a rule in the OP somewhere that said "no multivoting" or something. (In particular I'm assuming things like "No death millers" due to the non-bastard mod setup and I was unaware of whether multivotes fell under that kind of thing. A Death Miller is someone who looks like scum when they are killed, thus causing high levels of confusion and involving the mod lying to people.)

Got it. :3

On a completely unrelated note, while you're online, I actually have another question. What are your thoughts on Goomba?

I was actually just popping in before I headed off to work (First day, oh boy...on site right now so this post is liable to be short and not too well considered), so sorry about that.

Goomba...I agree with his commentary on Chris, but want to see his reaction to GX's post #141 (and probably Pala's post #150, actually) before I make my opinions public (as doing so might colour his reactions). For now I'll say I think he's worth keeping an eye on at this stage. I'll update this when I pop on next if Goomba has reacted to stuff.

@Coldblooded: Ah right so that means pressuring isn't as dire as in the two witch hunts I've played. That's good to know, but I still feel uneasy hopping on for similar reasons to the ones Goomba has outlined (and my own personal experience with being in Chris's position...). Still, I'll keep that in mind, cheers.

@icanhasdonut: I'm totally voting to lynch you right now, what do you have to say about that?

PREVIEW EDIT: Oh, here's our maybe friendly neighbourhood mushroom now. Right, well...those responses seem a little combative, but experience with Visceral has put me off viewing that as scummy automatically. He didn't immediately hop on the wagon when asked why he wasn't on there which I think is a plus, but him not being on there in the first place MIGHT represent a desire to seem uninvolved with the lynch while still encouraging it. I think overall some more pressing on Goomba is a good idea, so...

@Goomba: The idea behind putting your vote on Chris isn't whether it's needed or not, it represents you committing to lynching that person. I believe deadline votes are still a thing, so why not use a deadline vote? It appears to fit your position of "Chris is the person I would currently want lynched at day's end" quite well.
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02-02-2015, 12:28 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2015 01:03 PM by SupahKiven.)
Post: #153
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Votals? But the Ship's Computers Are Down!

Zatch (3): speedchuck, icanhasdonut, Garuru
ChrisClark13 (3): Terrabalt, Coldblooded, Acionyx
Garuru (3): Callistic, yappy111, Zatch
Mecha_Goomba (2): GenetiXientist, Palamedes
dichotomousCreator (1): phantomEclipse
icanhasdonut (1): dichotomousCreator
musicalMaestro (1): Mecha_Goomba
Palamedes (1): OzTheWizard

Abstaining: musicalMaestro, ChrisClark13

Day ends in approximately 72 hours.
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02-02-2015, 12:57 PM
Post: #154
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Wait, it's really been 3 days since daystart? I could have sworn it had only been two...

(or are we looking at a shorter D1?)
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02-02-2015, 01:03 PM
Post: #155
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Whoops, I set my counter wrong. It should be 72 hours. My bad.
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02-02-2015, 01:06 PM
Post: #156
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Way to go, Fart Shartley


i kidd, i kidd. (i wanted an excuse to say "fart shartley)

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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02-02-2015, 01:14 PM
Post: #157
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
It has been quite awhile since my last mafia game. I totally forgot about voting behaviors. It's like I can see myself being scum but I know I'm not. Sasuga Zatch.

While I did say that Chris might be scum, he is also a newbie and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and not pursue it at this point in time.

(Also, dat thinly veiled OMGUS)
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02-02-2015, 01:15 PM
Post: #158
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-02-2015 07:59 AM)Mecha_Goomba Wrote:  Chris is the scummiest person alive. He has said basically nothing to convince anyone he's town. If the day ended right now, I'd want him to be lynched. However, town gets very little out of his lynch in most cases.

Chris clearly doesn't know how to respond to all this suspicion. There's not much he can do to defend himself. He can't even scumhunt to prove his usefulness because so little stuff has actually happened. What useful info will we get out of his lynch? Only his death flip, and he's posted so little we couldn't even deduce much from that.

Lynches like this were what lost town DHI. I understand jumping on anything you see day 1, but if the person you're voting for folds under pressure you don't just commit the day to lynching them. You go on, dig at other people, and if dayend approaches or they start being scummy again then you put together a wagon on them.

Okay so where should the day be heading in your opinion?
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02-02-2015, 01:15 PM
Post: #159
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
I guess I can Deadline Vote: ChrisClark unless that isn't a thing.

@ColdBlooded I guess bc if Chris hasn't played in a while and hasn't read any of the game logs, he probably wouldn't know of Pala's tendency to be scum (which is 100% by games I've been in). If he was scum he would've seen the meta bw on him and just jumped on.

Oh and tomorrow the game of assassin im in starts, so wish me luck and maybe the paranoia will seep into this game in a helpful manner.

"What is Love?" -- Mc Hammer. You are almost certain MC Hammer said that.
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02-02-2015, 01:19 PM
Post: #160
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
I think deadlines are only in hunts.

And even if they were, I really don't like that move. At a time when votes matter, putting down a half vote seems really wishy washy to me. Vote musicalMaestro
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02-02-2015, 01:27 PM
Post: #161
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(read up on credithunt, zatch. MM is more nooby than chris

Besides you dont want to drill him the whole game like Vic and him end up being town)

Not to say im defending him, but as a sympathetic person, it's pains me to see obviously not-as-much skilled players fall under suspicion from literally nothing

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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02-02-2015, 01:30 PM
Post: #162
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Yknow, it's been awhile since ive actually seen Zatch and Oz, it's also the first time ive seen some of you (hi).


In other news that isnt looking like an imbecile, where is the murdler?


vote: mirdini Dc has failed to give me the response i wanted

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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02-02-2015, 01:38 PM
Post: #163
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
@dC
you're the only one voting for me and afaik it's still an rvs vote? feel free to elaborate if it's not
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02-02-2015, 01:38 PM
Post: #164
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(Mirdini isn't actually in the game, I tried this junction before as well)
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02-02-2015, 01:41 PM
Post: #165
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Why would you bother trying to vote for Mirdini on D1 anyway. Like what do you really expect to come from it?

Tumblr/Steam
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02-02-2015, 01:43 PM
Post: #166
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
wow im dumb.

@cb, idk maybe for once he would actually appearify

FOR ONCE

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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02-02-2015, 02:29 PM
Post: #167
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-02-2015 01:30 PM)phantomEclipse Wrote:  Yknow, it's been awhile since ive actually seen Zatch and Oz, it's also the first time ive seen some of you (hi).


In other news that isnt looking like an imbecile, where is the murdler?


vote: mirdini Dc has failed to give me the response i wanted

You should probably do something a bit more substantial

(02-02-2015 01:38 PM)icanhasdonut Wrote:  @dC
you're the only one voting for me and afaik it's still an rvs vote? feel free to elaborate if it's not

Largely, but you've been pretty scarce. I basically just want you to post something relevant to something before I move my vote elsewhere. Get involved!

Oh also, deadline votes are usually only a thing in hunts? Is that to offset the lack of flipping in them? I wasn't actually aware of this.

Sad. I liked deadline votes as a statement of intent without the quicklynch potential (I know that turns up scum if they do it but it's always made me nervous, personally)
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02-02-2015, 02:30 PM
Post: #168
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
EBWOP: Forgot to finish a sentence!

"You should probably do something a bit more substantial if you actually want a response..."

I was kinda just writing that vote off as RVS much as donut did with mine.
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02-02-2015, 02:39 PM
Post: #169
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
@Goomba: well I was hoping someone else would field it since you predictably blew it off, but basically you make this ranty post about how CC is scum but people should totally leave him alone except you don't go after people (like mM) who are suggesting we just leave the lynch there, you're not supporting people looking at other avenues (like lynching Zatch), and you're most certainly not putting up any ideas of your own. Like your post feels like filler meant so that you can go and either clear yourself if CC is scum or push a mislynch if he's town.

@dC there are no deadline votes, but hard lynch is nine and CC was certainly nowhere near there. Right now there's no reason for Goomba to not be doing anything but he's not which is ???
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02-02-2015, 02:59 PM
Post: #170
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Righto, scratch my deadline vote suggestion then. That does make a certain amount of sense but then as a fairly cautious player myself I think I can understand where Goomba is coming from.

@Goomba: Think of your vote as a thing that can be doing work if it's on Chris in this situation and isn't if you're leaving it on a random target you're not saying anything about. The question is, why aren't you worried about your vote not doing work? You can of course build more of a case for your current vote, but if you're looking for a more cautious approach there's really nothing wrong with going with the crowd. It kind of just represents adding additional weight to something someone else is doing, I think.

Would be interested to hear more about your current vote, though. Thoughts on MM?
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02-02-2015, 03:25 PM
Post: #171
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
EBWOP: I know it's a random vote but I'm vaguely amused by the fact that Pala's looking askance at Goomba for not going after mM when Goomba's vote is currently on mM :v
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02-02-2015, 03:53 PM
Post: #172
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Yeah I did not notice that but I mean random votes do not really count as real votes unless you back them up (because random voting != going after)? I stand by my point.
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02-02-2015, 03:54 PM
Post: #173
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
My random vote is also my actual vote right now, btw, when it's not 12:00 am and I don't have a 10:20 am class tomorrow, I'll probably elaborate on why I don't like goomba very much right now
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02-02-2015, 03:55 PM
Post: #174
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Well yeah I didn't mean to say it made your point invalid, just that I found it amusing.

Although treating random votes as COMPLETELY pointless makes RVS somewhat difficult to navigate, so I'd still like to see some content from Goomba about mM if there's anything to say there.
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02-02-2015, 04:07 PM
Post: #175
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Oh of course RVs still have their uses. Perhaps a better word would have been 'reasonless'? Like I fail to see any non-meta or scumwine reasons for random votes so they're meaningless from THAT point of view.
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02-02-2015, 04:14 PM
Post: #176
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
I guess the thing that interests me is that Goomba hasn't withdrawn or changed the vote.

I think you're taking that as effectively abstaining while I'm taking it as the RVS vote has potentially gained reasons behind it and now stands as a sensible vote. Hence the desire for Goomba to clarify current voting strategy. I agree it is odd that Goomba has begun participating and not changed from an RVS vote, but I'm seeing the possibility that the vote just isn't RVS any more.

Anyway it's largely moot until Goomba pops in and talks about all this.
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02-02-2015, 04:31 PM
Post: #177
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Lynch: Terrabalt
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02-02-2015, 11:40 PM
Post: #178
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-02-2015 04:31 PM)Acionyx Wrote:  Lynch: Terrabalt

Holy derp that was out of the blue

I am but a sheet of paper
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02-03-2015, 12:19 AM
Post: #179
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Yeah, Acio does that.

I'm actually half-tempted to follow him just to add weight to whatever he's doing, because whatever he's doing has a tendency to work (or at least make scum kill him in the first few days). However, I do want to hear from donut :/
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02-03-2015, 01:05 AM
Post: #180
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
oh right, mirdini is but an conjuration


Vote: dc hello again

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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02-03-2015, 03:27 AM
Post: #181
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
dC, it's not that you have to change your RVS vote, but you do have to at least bring it up in some sensible way.

Also I vaguely want to lynch you to now for 149 but other people are worse and you sort of did the same stuff in Credithunt if I remember correctly?
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02-03-2015, 03:32 AM
Post: #182
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Garuru, my randavote is still on you. Please post! We'd all like to hear from you c:
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02-03-2015, 03:50 AM
Post: #183
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Lynch MechaGoomba for calling ChrisClark "the scummiest person alive" while simultaneously trying very hard to defend him at every turn. Either bus him or don't, make up your mind.

Tumblr/Steam
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02-03-2015, 03:55 AM
Post: #184
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
I'll should be making a catchup post later today. Thanks for letting me slide under the radar until now. (Seriously though, sorry about not really doing anything yet, busy weekend)
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02-03-2015, 06:10 AM
Post: #185
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-03-2015 12:19 AM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  Yeah, Acio does that.

I'm actually half-tempted to follow him just to add weight to whatever he's doing, because whatever he's doing has a tendency to work (or at least make scum kill him in the first few days). However, I do want to hear from donut :/

You should vote terra because chrisclark is probably town and terra's done nothing but let his vote coast right along with things
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02-03-2015, 06:38 AM
Post: #186
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-03-2015 06:10 AM)Acionyx Wrote:  chrisclark is probably town

Okay I'll bite, why's that?

Tumblr/Steam
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02-03-2015, 06:53 AM
Post: #187
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
vote: dC because words words words but no vote vote vote.

and he is steadfastly parking his vote on a lurker on /Day 1/ while continuing to look like he's contributing through soft discussion, and helping newbies.

also considering how Goomba is being debated I will say that his insistence on not voting chris yells "scum" to me but at the same time his combative attitude isnt newb!scum and throws me off.

[Image: sig.gif]
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02-03-2015, 07:12 AM
Post: #188
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
vote:Goomba
I feel like him, CC, and dC are scumbuddies, but I think he's best to pressure right now.
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02-03-2015, 07:24 AM
Post: #189
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-03-2015 06:38 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 06:10 AM)Acionyx Wrote:  chrisclark is probably town

Okay I'll bite, why's that?

I don't really want to say it because then it can happen again with less chance of being faked (see: terminal 13 and the RARR!!vanilla claims that pala copied after they cleared people)
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02-03-2015, 07:41 AM
Post: #190
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
I get that I'm saying "trust me on this" but yeah trust me on this; it's a thing I've successfully identified people on in the past and I doubt he has the metaknowledge to fake it

Which leaves

ChrisClark13 (4): Terrabalt, Coldblooded, Acionyx, Maestro


Maestro and Terra aren't that great looking on there but Maestro's reading to me like he did in credithunt

Terra's done zilch other than comment that he's on chris for no reason and pop in to go "whaaa" at my voting him. He's obviously /around/ to react but he clearly isn't doing anything with that presence
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02-03-2015, 07:54 AM
Post: #191
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-03-2015 07:12 AM)Callistic Wrote:   vote:Goomba
I feel like him, CC, and dC are scumbuddies, but I think he's best to pressure right now.

Why those three in particular? Is there something out there that points to a DC/Goomba/Clark team, or do you just think that they all look individually scummy?

@Acio: Still not seeing whatever's pointing to ChrisClark as town but alright, I'll guess I'll just drop it for now.

Also I think you should note that Pala was also on the ChrisClark wagon for awhile, and I'm pretty sure that he and Chris aren't both scum together.

Tumblr/Steam
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02-03-2015, 07:58 AM
Post: #192
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-03-2015 01:05 AM)phantomEclipse Wrote:  oh right, mirdini is but an conjuration


Vote: dc hello again

...hi? Do you want to actually say something about this this time?

(02-03-2015 03:27 AM)Palamedes Wrote:  dC, it's not that you have to change your RVS vote, but you do have to at least bring it up in some sensible way.

Also I vaguely want to lynch you to now for 149 but other people are worse and you sort of did the same stuff in Credithunt if I remember correctly?

#149 is a post by pE, not me. Whichever post you're actually referring to with this that's probably true (additionally I have a lot less time than I did in Dersehunt so I'm trying to contribute in different ways)

(02-03-2015 06:53 AM)Garuru Wrote:  vote: dC because words words words but no vote vote vote.

and he is steadfastly parking his vote on a lurker on /Day 1/ while continuing to look like he's contributing through soft discussion, and helping newbies.

also considering how Goomba is being debated I will say that his insistence on not voting chris yells "scum" to me but at the same time his combative attitude isnt newb!scum and throws me off.


(02-03-2015 06:10 AM)Acionyx Wrote:  
(02-03-2015 12:19 AM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  Yeah, Acio does that.

I'm actually half-tempted to follow him just to add weight to whatever he's doing, because whatever he's doing has a tendency to work (or at least make scum kill him in the first few days). However, I do want to hear from donut :/

You should vote terra because chrisclark is probably town and terra's done nothing but let his vote coast right along with things

Eh, you're probably right. Lynch: Terrabalt. Can we still try and get donut to talk though? I mean I appreciate we'd have to build a lynch train to do so mechanically and that's a huge waste of town's time but...bah, I don't know. Just post already, dude. You were quiet in my last two games and I'd still be voting you if I thought you cared about the fact that I was doing so.

@Garu - Is leaving my vote there really that useless, in your experience? Like, how likely is it that donut would have contributed something if I left it there?

@Acio: Why does Coldblooded look better than the other two? Will he still look better if his next post doesn't move his vote?

PREVIEW EDIT: @Coldblooded: If you're dropping that, why is your vote still on him? :V
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02-03-2015, 08:08 AM
Post: #193
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
EBWOP: Come to think of it though, isn't Terrabalt kind of lurking as well? Acio, what would you do if there just wasn't another Terrapost today?
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02-03-2015, 08:08 AM
Post: #194
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-03-2015 07:58 AM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  PREVIEW EDIT: @Coldblooded: If you're dropping that, why is your vote still on him? :V

Uh, because it isn't? I moved my vote over to Goomba four hours ago. And now I'm going to change it again, b-but not I like you or anything!

Anyway Terrabalt's been sort of low level lurkyscum for the entire day so far, so I guess I'm fine with just blindly following Acio onto his wagon for the time being.

Lynch Terrabalt

Tumblr/Steam
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02-03-2015, 08:14 AM
Post: #195
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-03-2015 07:41 AM)Acionyx Wrote:  ChrisClark13 (4): Terrabalt, Coldblooded, Acionyx, Maestro

...this was just "people who were on Chris", not "people who are on Chris", wasn't it.

Goddamit.

Stop being so tsun-tsun, Coldblooded :3

In serious news, I think there's just about enough posts for readthroughs to produce something useful so I'll take a look from the glorious D1 position of not being about to die for a change!
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02-03-2015, 08:17 AM
Post: #196
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
dC i'm not really sure what you want me to post? i don't have a lot of stuff to say wrt actual important things such as lynches(like i have no clue what the lynch trains are for today) so uh
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02-03-2015, 08:31 AM
Post: #197
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Terrabalt kinda fluff posted to Acio's vote and that makes me feel a bit uneasy. So, for the sake of actually putting my vote somewhere useful today, I'm going to Vote: Terrabalt

Three vote changes in one day, I'm going to reek of scum.
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02-03-2015, 08:51 AM
Post: #198
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
Could everyone please listen to what I am actually saying? I didn't keep my vote off Chris because I thought he was town. He didn't look town at all! As I said before, he was the scummiest person alive. (Note: It's day 1. Scummiest alive doesn't mean super scummy.)

However, lynching him wouldn't have had very good results. He clearly wasn't going to respond to the vote. Somebody had to say something other than "yeah sure lynch him", or else the only info we'd have gotten from day 1 would be a deathflip. I decided the person to create actual discussion might as well be me.

My RVS vote stayed where it is because the only person under discussion was Chris, I didn't like his lynch, and I didn't feel comfortable enough to find an entirely new lynch target from two pages of discussion. mM never looked particularly scummy to me.

Speaking of which, Vote: Terrabalt. There's some chance he'll actually talk about the vote, so I can actually do something.
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02-03-2015, 09:24 AM
Post: #199
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
(02-03-2015 07:58 AM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  @Garu - Is leaving my vote there really that useless, in your experience? Like, how likely is it that donut would have contributed something if I left it there?

Gonna take this from the top. Your vote on donut does absolutely nothing. Donut knows it, too. So, yes, it's useless. Nobody would seriously believe that your RVS vote will magically end up lynching donut. On the other hand, if you post a vote backed up with reasoning, even if its just to agree with someone else or to call out someone for lurking (note: works best later in the game!), it puts pressure on that person and they will now have to defend themselves to prevent their lynch from piling up. See, you're not just voting people out, you're convincing other people that they are worth voting out.

[Image: sig.gif]
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02-03-2015, 09:35 AM
Post: #200
RE: FTL Mafia - Day One: Rebel Rabble
@Garu: Right, so since there's no serious danger of a lurker lynch D1 lurker votes are at no risk of accruing followers and thus can be safely ignored.

This means scum can "safely" lurk D1 to avoid being targeted D1, but this behaviour can be referenced on later days as part of a case against them I guess?

Although I would have thought that later in the game it'd be harder to get a case going against a lurker unless there's no good scum candidate around...although I guess that's GOOD because it means lurkers are more likely to be lynched if they're actually scum. On the other hand it means there isn't much recourse against lurktown (which I guess makes sense because town's weapon is the lynch and we never actually want to lynch town so if we don't think the lurkers are scum then they can basically do whatever they want. It's annoying, but it's the sort of thing that gets handled in game construction and the like I suppose)

Anyway that clears some other stuff up about the game as well (like why reasoning without a vote looks weird: If you want people on the lynch, what reason could you have for NOT being there?), so thanks.

Plus I'll probably get a better result just asking questions instead. @Donut: There is currently a wagon on Terrabalt largely for voting pattern reasons (I believe). How strong do you think that argument is?
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