Discussion Credithunt
12-21-2014, 04:21 PM (This post was last modified: 03-24-2015 08:03 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #1
Credithunt
[Image: making-it-rain.png]
c r e d i t h u n t
an open setup by TehPilot
(image source)

When everyone's rich, anyone's fair game!

The stock market's a cutthroat, violent battlefield where success in wagered in economic wit and buying better hitmen than your rival investors. There's nobody who knows this better than the top dogs on Wall Street, who take your very tax dollars and roll their cigars with them. Or perhaps those who run the table are socialist hounds that want to undermine the capitalist underbelly of the nation. Perhaps it's time to put your cards on the table and your poker chips in the prize pool and settle this ideological quandary once and for all!

With all that fancy flowery introductory stuff out of the way, here's an explanation to the above. I'm TehPilot, veteran-ish player of Mafia and I bringing you my first foray into open setup design. Starting with the player size of esteemed setup Tinyhunt, I build this setup around a money-esque mechanic meant to add an interesting layer of micromanagement and heightened decision-making to a tried and true formula. The end result is something pretty interesting: a hunt where you have to worry about your friends, your foes, and your bank account. All at once.

Huge thanks to Stiq for taking a gander and offering his sage advice, and to anyone else who offered their criticisms and contributions when I posted a simple Google Docs page in general mafia chat a long time ago. Let's dive into the setup then, shall we?

All basics from hunt games are in place for this game. The game occurs over alternating day and night cycles, with a lynch phase and a kill phase for the Mafia. These two factions duke it out until the Mafia's eliminated or Town cannot effectively combat the Mafia. There are no role flips on death. Any and all ties in votes or elections are resolved via random number generation decision. Survivals in this game are privately (not publicly!) announced.

Money matters: Credits

All players have special actions activated by spending or manipulating a currency known as Credits.

Credits follow these basic rules:
  • All players begin with two Credits.
  • At the start of each day, all players gain an extra Credit.
  • When a player dies, their credits are permanently lost/destroyed (in most situations).
  • All dead players, each day they exist, can give a Credit to one player per Day. This Credit is awarded to the player of their choosing at the start of the Night cycle.
  • Credits, unless a night action specifically grants it, cannot be transferred and hold no real world monetary value.
  • Players cannot use a night action multiple times per night, even if they can afford the associated cost.
All living players can also spend two (2) Credits during the day to turn their vote into a free double vote! This is an announced, public event and the granted double vote goes away if the player changes their vote afterwards. Double votes cannot be purchased two days in a row, or used towards a No Lynch.

Know your role

Role Name - Activation Cost
Description.

Roles are split across two distinct factions, the Town and Mafia.

Town - 10 players - Wins as a collective when the entire Mafia is eliminated. All dead Town players may freely communicate amongst each other.
Inspector - 2 credits
Active: At Night, the Inspector may spend two (2) Credits and select a player. They are informed of the target’s alignment (Town/Mafia).

Safekeeper - 2 credits
Active: At Night, the Safekeeper may spend two (2) Credits and select a player. The target is protected from most forms of death: the Mafia’s kill, the Assassin’s kill, and the Assassin’s suicide as well. A successful protection that blocks a death refunds the Safekeeper one (1) Credit.

Donor - 3 credits
Active: At Night, the Donor may spend three (3) Credits and select a target. If the target is visited by at least one other player, both the Donor and his/her target will earn one (1) Credit.

Thief - 4 credits
Passive: Every person who targets the Thief with an action will have one (1) of their Credits destroyed.
Active: If the Thief has at least four (4) Credits upon his or her death, the Thief may target a player and eliminate all their Credits.

Assassin - 5 credits
Active: At Night, the Assassin may spend five (5) Credits to target a player. If the target is aligned with the Mafia, the target is killed. If the target is aligned with the Town, the Assassin commits suicide instead. Both the Assassin’s kill and the Assassin’s suicide are indistinguishable from the Mafia’s factional nightkill.

Director - 5 credits
Passive: The Director is informed at the end of each day who was voted by the dead to receive an additional Credit.
Active: The Director can spend five (5) Credits to automatically disable all doublevotes during a Day cycle.

CEO - 8 credits
Active: If the CEO acquires eight (8) Credits, they may spend them to modconfirm themselves as the CEO at any time during the Day cycle.

Mortician - 8 credits
Active: If the Mortician acquires eight (8) Credits, they may spend them to publicly reveal the role of one (1) dead player.

Investor - Varying credits
Passive: The Investor gains one (1) bonus Credit with each passing day.
Active: Before the end of a Night cycle, the Investor may give away all his Credits to any player he wants. The target receives all the credits the Investor has at the start of the following Day cycle.

Sidekick - Varying credits
Passive: If two members of the Town are lynched in a row, the Sidekick may select one of the two lynched townsfolk and gain their active and passive powers. If the Sidekick already has an inherited power, the previous power is replaced by the new one.
Active: The Sidekick inherits any active action of the person they select, as well as the Credit cost for activating.

Mafia - 3 players - Wins as a collective when they equal or outnumber the voting power of the Town. Members of the Mafia may communicate freely amongst each other (even when dead!) and may send one of their own to kill a person of their choosing each night.
Pickpocket - 3 credits
Passive: If the Pickpocket spends three (3) credits, performs the nightkill for the faction, and the victim has more Credits than the Pickpocket, the Pickpocket earns all Credits the deceased player possessed.
Active: The Pickpocket may also pass up to two (2) Credits a night to each of their fellow team members (four total).

Refinancer - 4 or 8 credits
Active: At night, the Refinancer may spend four (4) Credits and target two players. Any actions targeting one player are driven to the other player. If the Refinancer spends four (4) additional credits (total of eight), the Refinancer may busdrive himself with another intended target.

Loan Shark - 4 credits
Passive: The Loan Shark automatically earns one (1) Credit at the start of each Night.
Active: At night, the Loan Shark may spend four (4) Credits and target a player. The Loan Shark learns what roles (but not players) targeted that player.

Foreclosures

At any time, the Mafia may sacrifice their normal nightly elimination and instead attempt a number of Foreclosures. The Mafia may attempt to match players to their roles until they choose to stop. A successful match will ensure a player’s death, bypassing Safekeeper protection. An incorrect match beyond the first costs the Mafia a fine of four (4) Credits. If the first match is incorrect, all foreclosure attempts are stopped. If the Mafia is fined for more Credits than they possess, foreclosure stops immediately.

Foreclosures appear the same as the Assassin's kill or suicide and the Mafia's nightly kill.

Getting things done: Day/Night Action Priority List
Day
- Day phase begins
- Third-day Credit distribution (if applicable)

- CEO’s reveal (if applicable)
- Director’s doublevote disable (if applicable)

- Lynch results
- Thief activates (if killed)
- Credit distribution (dead player’s choice)
- Director gathers his information
- Night begins

Night
- Sidekick activation (if applicable)
- Investor donation
- Pickpocket’s coin pass

- Inspector’s check
- Refinancer’s busdriving
- Safekeeper’s protection

- Mafia nightkill/Foreclosure
- Assassin’s kill

- Loan Shark’s check
- Donor’s action

- Thief activates (if killed)
- All mod message/Credits distributed
- Day phase begins

And that's your concise guide in playing the Mafia stock market. Collect your bags, put on your best suit and tie, and collect your finance degree now!

Leave your comments and suggestions here in this thread. I'm looking to maybe run this game in January after collecting some feedback, and hopefully a few more times to fine-tune the roles and rules a little. Feel free to modify and run this setup yourself - just drop me a line so I can take a look (or maybe even play) your game or derivative.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-21-2014, 04:59 PM
Post: #2
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Oh sweet! How long have you been planning this now? Looks like it's coming together!
I'll check it out when I find the time.
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12-21-2014, 05:29 PM
Post: #3
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Only recently, I had totally forgotten about it until I found the document during routine drive cleaning. I gave the link to some people and implemented recommended changes and thought a dedicated thread would be best.

It's complex for a little game, but I figured that'd be part of the fun.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-21-2014, 05:36 PM
Post: #4
RE: Credithunt Discussion
I'm like 99% sure I've read over this setup.
I wonder how it's evolved since...!
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12-21-2014, 05:53 PM (This post was last modified: 12-21-2014 05:54 PM by Acionyx.)
Post: #5
RE: Credithunt Discussion
(12-21-2014 04:21 PM)TehPilot Wrote:  [*]Two players are also randomly given a Credit. Two players cannot recieve a random Credit boon on consecutive days.

Kneejerk response is I don't like random effects like that. If nothing else it's kind of wonky in that it's mildly helpful to most roles and /really/ good for the cop and the doc guaranteeing them a night action. Wouldn't mind seeing the effect tested though

Quote:Loan Shark - 4 credits
Passive: The Loan Shark automatically earns one (1) Credit at the start of each Night.
Active: At night, the Loan Shark may spend four (4) Credits and target a player. The Loan Shark learns what roles (but not players) targeted that player.

That night or for the sum of the game up until that point?

Quote:Foreclosures

At any time, the Mafia may sacrifice their normal nightly elimination and instead attempt a number of Foreclosures. The Mafia may attempt to match players to their roles until they choose to stop. A successful match will ensure a player’s death, bypassing Safekeeper protection. An incorrect match beyond the first costs the Mafia a fine of four (4) Credits. If the first match is incorrect, all foreclosure attempts are stopped. If the Mafia is fined for more Credits than they possess, foreclosure stops immediately.

At first glance:

-encourages team to not eido it up (with loanshark's ability having everyone alive gives you +1 oblit attempt each day)
-makes scum's two active abilities almost pointless to ever use (aside from pickpocket who should be shoving money in the other twos faces before he shanks people)
-Makes stalematey situations bad for town? Scum gain an almost-oblit-attempt every day they're all alive whether the kill is successful or not.
-Pretty much guarantees that scum who play well do not have to ever face mylo or lylo (i like this)


I like the idea and certainly want to see it in action
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12-21-2014, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 12-21-2014 06:04 PM by Acionyx.)
Post: #6
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Also question: is the random credit public announced?

Also also pickpocket things:

-Does pickpocket's thing checking < or > on credits occur before after abilities resolve?

-You should probably straight up remove PP learning the role there's almost zero chance he'll /ever/ have more credits when he can already pass them off. Alternatively remove the handoff ability so that he can only reduce credits through foreclosure fees. Both together is a bit much and I think there might be some gameplay to cop/doc roles having to decide whether to use their abilities night one or hold onto them so that pickpocket can't bucket their roles if he hits one immediately
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12-21-2014, 06:12 PM
Post: #7
RE: Credithunt Discussion
wrt: random effects - None of the other ideas I had to increase uneven credit gain seemed to stick. One iteration had people with no votes on them get credit at the end of the day (promotes weird voting behavior, think Jury Hunt). I wouldn't mind testing the randomness out, but I do agree a better solution needs to be drafted in the long run.

Loan Shark only learns the roles that visited that night. Rolewatcher of sorts.

Random credits currently aren't announced.

Pickpocket credit check follows night action priority - Investor, Refinancer, and Safekeeper can fire off their abilities before that check, other roles can't.

And I do think I'll remove the role-learning ability on Pickpocket, I'm not sure why I added that in as I wanted the Loan Shark's watching to be the big role discovery mechanic for the scumteam. Pickpocket passes off credits and fishes for high-profile kills to help his teammates either disrupt town activity or learn roles to go foreclosing - that's the ideal scum syngergy I'd want.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-21-2014, 06:19 PM
Post: #8
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Also yeesh I just realized the night action chart I copy/pasted from the document wasn't updated to fit some role changes. Quickly removed references to a nonexistent role and mechanic.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-21-2014, 06:37 PM
Post: #9
RE: Credithunt Discussion
(12-21-2014 06:12 PM)TehPilot Wrote:  Pickpocket credit check follows night action priority - Investor, Refinancer, and Safekeeper can fire off their abilities before that check, other roles can't.

Is there a reason inspector isn't in that club? Cop being unable to jettison his credits just makes him even more attractive to kill than normal
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12-22-2014, 12:15 AM
Post: #10
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Quote:CEO - 7 credits
Active: If the CEO acquires seven (7) Credits, they may spend them to modconfirm themselves as the CEO at any time during the Day cycle.

I don't understand how this power could be useful to the player using it, or town. As soon as you reveal yourself, the Mafia can obliterate you with no consequences and nothing stopping them, even giving them an advantage because they get a successful first kill (because it's confirmed by the Mod).

I'm new to the Mafia subforums however, so there may be something I'm missing. Also, I'd love to play this when it starts up, assuming someone with zero firsthand forum mafia experience can join.
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12-22-2014, 12:31 AM
Post: #11
RE: Credithunt Discussion
CEO power could be useful on the very last day of the game, where town has to lynch the last mafia correctly or lose anyway. It could also be useful if the CEO's about to be lynched by town, since at least that way the players have a chance to switch onto somebody who might actually be scum.

But yeah, otherwise the CEO power is pretty bad all around and should only be activated when absolutely necessary.

Tumblr/Steam
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12-22-2014, 04:49 AM (This post was last modified: 12-22-2014 06:49 AM by TehPilot.)
Post: #12
RE: Credithunt Discussion
CEO and Mortician are role-reveal powers meant to be activated in the very late game or in an emergency to give Town a possible win. Hence why their credit costs are so high - with ambient credit gain and nothing else, they're likely to get the funding they need to trigger by Day 4 or Day 5.

Although I am probably gonna raise the cost for CEO up to eight credits so those roles are on par in terms of cost.

EDIT: Just to prevent myself from doubleposting - I implemented a few consistency changes: Pickpocket no longer learns the killed player's role, CEO and Mortician costs are normalized at eight Credits. I also opted to raise the priority of the Inspector's check - that way, he's no longer always the top choice for Pickpocket to go after in the night. I'm thinking of adding some kind of cost for a Pickpocket's creditstealing kill (three credits maybe?).

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-24-2014, 07:54 AM (This post was last modified: 12-24-2014 07:56 AM by reaverb.)
Post: #13
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Ohh, I like this. I would probably play with the set-up as-is, but some comments (spoilers used to break things up):

The Sidekick role is A+ design, defensive counter-intel + Adding back lost Town mechanics looks great.

I feel Thief should be renamed since it "destroys" Credits. Maybe something like "Gambler"?

Income problems:
Two related problems with income here:
A) I also don't like the randomness in income.
B) Dead players tend not to stay invested in the game, so having a deadchat with alignments unknown tends to be unfun and prevent Night Action hammers from what I've seen. (Mafia players continuing to insist they are Town no matter how obviously scum they are is +EV, for example.)

I think removing the plurality vote/random bonus income and adding something like "Each player who has died since the last Night phase may select a player to give one credit" would work better.

Rubberbanding/Comeback mechanics:
Safekeeper getting money back on a successful protect seems bad because it snowballs rather than rubberbands. (i.e, a successful protect is its own reward, why give the Safekeeper a credit too?) I would drop the refund clause and consider adding a clause giving a penalty on a successful protect.

Assassin aka Desperado might also have this problem but I might be making an evaluation error. Would the Assassin be expected to activate when Town was losing or when Town was winning?

Refinancer seems to be really complicated for what appears to be its purpose (role coaching deterrent, preventing Investigator checks from being 100% trustworthy). I've always thought of Night Action priority lists as a necessary evil to resolve edge cases, not something to make a role around. I'd just make the Refinancer a busdriver with the "4 extra credits to self-target" restriction.

Investor ability ending on the Day cycle:
Investor ending on the Day cycle has a timing problem because the Investor might need to react to panic lynches. There was a game called Quickhunt on fantasystrike which required every Night Action to be queued before Day end and it caused several problems (Mafia changed the NK last minute and the mod missed the change and needed a lie to backtrack it, one role had to change their action in reaction to a claim made literally 15 minutes before Day end)

Changing the Investor to start with 2 Credits like other roles while making their Night Action grant credits at the end of the Night seems like a relatively neutral power-level change which reduces complexity/timing problems.

I'm not sure what the point of the "spend a credit to get a double vote" mechanic is, particularly since there are several counters (Director, removal at 5 players or less, no purchase two Days in a row). Could you describe your goals with this mechanic? I think an explanation would also help prevent a massive evaluation error if it's a big part of the game.

In my opinion, the credit subsystem just begs for a D1 election mechanic. As an example, perhaps there could be a plurality election D1 where the winner earns 3 Credits. (I like D1 mechanics as a way to get the game moving, this is why lump exists in Tinyhunt, for example)

Pickpocket having a cost to activate would make the ability more of a skill test and less of a random bonus. (So I think it would be a good idea)
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12-24-2014, 01:40 PM
Post: #14
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Quote:The Sidekick role is A+ design, defensive counter-intel + Adding back lost Town mechanics looks great.

Thanks! Sidekick is probably one of my favorite town power roles I've drafted up for a game (next to Frozen Hearts' recharging desperado role, but that was too far on the strong side of things with that game).

Quote:Two related problems with income here:
A) I also don't like the randomness in income.
B) Dead players tend not to stay invested in the game, so having a deadchat with alignments unknown tends to be unfun and prevent Night Action hammers from what I've seen. (Mafia players continuing to insist they are Town no matter how obviously scum they are is +EV, for example.)

I think removing the plurality vote/random bonus income and adding something like "Each player who has died since the last Night phase may select a player to give one credit" would work better.

Yeah, agree with you on point A. I suppose I ran out of ideas and figured throwing in variance wouldn't be a bad thing, but that was a bit of a mistake.

B is something I'm looking to counteract this game - scum still have access to their regular chat and can help their teammates from beyond the grave, so if anything a non-aligned, global deadchat is mostly just an interesting space to shoot the breeze. I do like the idea of dead players being able to give a credit to a living player per cycle. Perhaps town players have their own deadchat, and they can have collective postmortem information to fuel town power roles with a margin of error, and scum can continue to collaborate even when dead. Maybe?

Quote:Safekeeper getting money back on a successful protect seems bad because it snowballs rather than rubberbands. (i.e, a successful protect is its own reward, why give the Safekeeper a credit too?) I would drop the refund clause and consider adding a clause giving a penalty on a successful protect.

Seems weird to punish a role for doing their job, though. I'm also not opposed to giving town some snowball power as scum's got several means of retaliation (redirection, pickpocket kill, foreclosure) to stop snowballing town, and scum has a lot of consistent, strong power.

Quote:Assassin aka Desperado might also have this problem but I might be making an evaluation error. Would the Assassin be expected to activate when Town was losing or when Town was winning?

I'd say neither, and it's more in the Assassin's ability to evaluate situations. With proposed deadchat changes Assassin failure would give deadchat a townfirm, Assassin success is a huge boost for town. It's a role I see activating optimally in two circumstances: when town is far ahead as a push for early success or deadchat intel, and as an emergency option when straits are dire for Town.

Quote:Refinancer seems to be really complicated for what appears to be its purpose (role coaching deterrent, preventing Investigator checks from being 100% trustworthy). I've always thought of Night Action priority lists as a necessary evil to resolve edge cases, not something to make a role around. I'd just make the Refinancer a busdriver with the "4 extra credits to self-target" restriction.

Works for me. Good old busdriving is consistent and effective, self-targeting makes it a super strong role. I do like the idea of a late-game Refinancer being difficult to handle in the night phase if he's far ahead of credits, so yeah I'll implement this change. Will also probably save me some headaches down the road.

Quote:Investor ability ending on the Day cycle:

Good point on turning Investor into a night action. Raising the initial credit ownership to two credits would allow Investor to guarantee a lot of roles (town roles not named CEO/Moritican, most Mafia roles) to reliably activate earlier, and I'm undecided about that. The D1 vote mechanic you propose later down in your post would allow for that, so perhaps I'll keep one of the two changes there.

Quote:I'm not sure what the point of the "spend a credit to get a double vote" mechanic is, particularly since there are several counters (Director, removal at 5 players or less, no purchase two Days in a row). Could you describe your goals with this mechanic? I think an explanation would also help prevent a massive evaluation error if it's a big part of the game.

The implementation for this is mostly psychological, I suppose. I actually wanted to try the game with this to see what use players got out of it. Scum could use it to rush a lynch to secure them the game, town players can use it early game (when most roles don't have anywhere near enough Credits to trigger) for hard pressure, and if anything it's a big red button of sorts. Maybe players can activate their abilities to press their point and draw attention to something (or scum to draw attention away from teammates by getting shouty about something).

I could use some more feedback about the deadchat changes I put forth and having a credit reward election D1 vs. an Investor who could guarantee night actions with an early donation.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-24-2014, 02:37 PM (This post was last modified: 12-24-2014 02:37 PM by Druplesnubb.)
Post: #15
RE: Credithunt Discussion
I think Investor is good as it is, except for the day activation. i support a day one election for extra credit. Or maybe have an election every day instead of the random credits?
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12-24-2014, 05:39 PM
Post: #16
RE: Credithunt Discussion
(12-24-2014 01:40 PM)TehPilot Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not sure what the point of the "spend a credit to get a double vote" mechanic is, particularly since there are several counters (Director, removal at 5 players or less, no purchase two Days in a row). Could you describe your goals with this mechanic? I think an explanation would also help prevent a massive evaluation error if it's a big part of the game.

The implementation for this is mostly psychological, I suppose. I actually wanted to try the game with this to see what use players got out of it. Scum could use it to rush a lynch to secure them the game, town players can use it early game (when most roles don't have anywhere near enough Credits to trigger) for hard pressure, and if anything it's a big red button of sorts. Maybe players can activate their abilities to press their point and draw attention to something (or scum to draw attention away from teammates by getting shouty about something).
Hmm, I don't think I would ever use a double vote for pressure/emphasis, I'd just use bold or italics or something. I don't think I would ever given up a mechanical advantage for Day chat influence.

Other than the emphasis/Day chat influence thing (I don't think I wouldn't use it, maybe some other players would?), I just think the mechanic has little effect. There's only one lynch, so votes only matter in the context of other votes. I see Mafia occasionally forcing through a lynch with double-votes and the mechanic having no other effect.

One thing I suspect but am unsure of: The ability to force players to "burn" a Credit and hold them accountable if they don't will be more relevant than the double votes.
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12-24-2014, 05:45 PM (This post was last modified: 12-24-2014 05:49 PM by Palamedes.)
Post: #17
RE: Credithunt Discussion
I can see it used for a variety of other purposes, such as breaking deadlock or, going further on that, avoiding a no-lynch in a realm of people who aren't around near hammer/lurking. Especially if people can't deadline lynch (which I always thought was infinitely more interesting but that might just be me). Scum could use it to quickhammer with ease, or similarly to up the hardlynch limit near dayend to force a no lynch.

Quick addon question, purchasing and using the doublevote are the exact same thing right? You specify that they're unpurchasable and unusable come five or less players being alive, which seems to suggest otherwise? I mean it could be neat if you can store up doublevotes but that also seems like it might be a tad overpowered and is also probably not what you intended.
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12-25-2014, 09:05 AM
Post: #18
RE: Credithunt Discussion
(12-24-2014 05:45 PM)Palamedes Wrote:  I can see it used for a variety of other purposes, such as breaking deadlock or, going further on that, avoiding a no-lynch in a realm of people who aren't around near hammer/lurking. Especially if people can't deadline lynch (which I always thought was infinitely more interesting but that might just be me). Scum could use it to quickhammer with ease, or similarly to up the hardlynch limit near dayend to force a no lynch.
I think scum being able to use the double vote mechanic near dayend to force a no lynch would be a flaw in the game. If Town lost because there weren't any Townies around when scum decided to push a no-lynch at MYLO I think that would be incredibly unsatisfiying.

I do like effects which make lurkers or people not being around less relevant, so that's a plus. (I would prefer for Towns to not have lurkers/avoid panic lynches but I don't know how to fix that.)
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12-25-2014, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 12-25-2014 10:38 AM by TehPilot.)
Post: #19
RE: Credithunt Discussion
I don't intend for anyone to be able to double vote No Lynch, that's downright gamebreaking as scum would be able to force wins much sooner that way.

That being said, I'm going to change Director up a bit. I still want Director to have powers relating to vote control, but I'm unsure of how to go about it. One way I could possibly go about it: Remove the player number requirement on buying doublevotes and raise the price to two credits, and Director becomes something like:

Director - 5 credits
Passive: Learn what players received credits from the dead at the start of each Night cycle.
Active: At the time of a lynch, you may spend five (5) credits to instantly kill anyone who has a double vote on the lynch victim. Conditionals can be set for this role to activate.

This makes surprise scum lynches to close out the game riskier, and they need to weigh the risk of having Director alive to turn the tides on them in the Night cycle (especially if Assassin could still be alive!). And with high costs for the Mafia (abilities, foreclosing, etc) they need to strike a balance between buying out the game for an early win and not having the credits necessary to close the game out if Director/Assassin/Sidekick are alive.

I'm going through with the other intended changes I outlined, updating the OP right as we speak (type?).

Also @Palamedes - purchasing and using a doublevote's the same. Apologies if the terminology was repetitive/redundant/inconsistent.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-26-2014, 08:05 AM
Post: #20
RE: Credithunt Discussion
I'm feeling confident in the current revision and it's a great time to collect signups, so I went ahead and started the first Credithunt game thread.

Best of luck!

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-27-2014, 12:55 AM
Post: #21
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Does "anyone" in the new Director text mean "everybody" or "a person of your choice"?
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12-29-2014, 08:44 AM
Post: #22
RE: Credithunt Discussion
Things I'm noting looking at the current set of rules in the game thread:

-Investor might be better without getting the bonus credit; as is he can allow CEO/Mortician to activate day two which makes either of them claiming in the face of a day one lynch a not terrible play (he can also do this for assassin regardless of the bonus but I think that one's okay)

Yeah claims and all that but it takes a couple of days for scum to build up enough to chain nuke people (and just taking a single oblit is countered by Assassin/CEO/Mortician just claiming that bucket of roles)

I'd also suggest increasing the director's cost since his role is another provable on and is potentially abused in the same way the potato cultist was (hey asshole we want you dead double vote so director can kill you). Hell you can throw him in with the other three
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12-29-2014, 09:25 AM
Post: #23
RE: Credithunt Discussion
(12-27-2014 12:55 AM)reaverb Wrote:  Does "anyone" in the new Director text mean "everybody" or "a person of your choice"?

One person.

(12-29-2014 08:44 AM)Acionyx Wrote:  Things I'm noting looking at the current set of rules in the game thread:

-Investor might be better without getting the bonus credit; as is he can allow CEO/Mortician to activate day two which makes either of them claiming in the face of a day one lynch a not terrible play (he can also do this for assassin regardless of the bonus but I think that one's okay)

[...]

I'd also suggest increasing the director's cost since his role is another provable on and is potentially abused in the same way the potato cultist was (hey asshole we want you dead double vote so director can kill you). Hell you can throw him in with the other three

Good suggestions you've got there; I'll implement them. I'm good with raising Director's activation cost but I'm not sure how far to push it. Eight credits would make the mentioned abuse case impossible without a dedicated effort from a claim and Investor paying attention, but six credits would make the role more reliable in emergency cases involving scum rushes (the original intention of the role).

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
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12-02-2016, 10:37 AM
Post: #24
RE: Credithunt
Hey everybody what's up it's me.

It's been somewhat close to two years since the first round of this game went live (hot diggity) and considering the interest I've had in doing Mafia stuff again + people wanting to play it, might as well bring this thread back to life. Skimming back through the thread, here's what I've got so far in terms of changes and desires expressed from players:

Town Roles
Inspector
Probably fine. Strong info role for town.

Safekeeper
Not too sure? I think it works fine as is, if a bit low-involvement.

Donor
Thinking of reducing activation cost to zero and upping the gain, or changing this role entirely.

Thief
Thinking the rework from the post-game discussion would work just fine.

Passive: On death, target a player. You remove as many Credits as you had upon death from them.
Active (0 credits): Visit a player. You steal one Credit from them.

Assassin
Assassin is fine, imo

Director
Might change this to be closer to a Judge type role. Passive likely to stay

CEO
Active: Spend six (6) Credits to modconfirm self as CEO. CEO is immune to foreclosure the following night.

Maybe auto activate at 4 or less players w/ immunity?

Mortician
Lower cost to 4 credits, learn roles privately.

Investor
I think it's fine

Sidekick
Sidekick is informed if he survives a foreclosure incorrectly implicating him as the role he copied, maybe? I kind of like this buff

Doublevote purchases
Doublevotes can be bought consecutively (rule clarification), lose effectiveness when only 4 or less people alive

Mafia Roles + Mechanics
Pickpocket
Lower role cost to 2 credits

Refinancer
Lower cost to 3/5 credits, respectively

Loan Shark
Probably fine

Foreclosures
Doesn't need to be any more complicated, imo

General Game Mechanics
Shorten D1/N1 to standard length, because nobody likes D1.

Maybe replace doublevote buying? Doesn't feel super impactful, just needlessly swing-heavy. I'd like some sort of public action to increase player involvement and drive discussion, and doublevotes didn't seem to achieve that despite their impact last game.

I welcome any ideas brought about after the fact.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-02-2016, 12:19 PM
Post: #25
RE: Credithunt
How do you feel about shorter times?

I put forth in the general chat about having the game last no longer than 12 hours.

But maybe we shorten the day/ night phase to a 36/12 hour schedule?

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12-02-2016, 02:25 PM
Post: #26
RE: Credithunt
I'm thinking about general credit actions that any player could purchase...how well would a roleblock work? It'd have to refund credits to anyone who spent them on an action (so you don't still spend your activation cost if it hit you), and it'd have to be expensive (like, 4~6 creds level expensive, you want it to be weak compared to role powers kind of like the Hero Power in Hearthstone is a lot weaker than any given card of the same cost) but it might lead to more interactive interplay.

It also might clog up the game a bit much and/or be too slow. It's possible there could be more than one credit option available to everybody (in which case I'd propose the doublevote should stick around simply as one of a number of options). Like, maybe you can invest credits and you get a return of more credits some time down the line? Or you can buy private messages to other players, or masonchats, or other stuff (list of things you shouldn't be able to buy: Night protection, kills, investigations, anything that causes big problems if everyone in the game late game can do it at once)

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(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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12-02-2016, 08:39 PM
Post: #27
RE: Credithunt
Very short day cycles are prohibitive for me. I can't manage 12 hour days with my schedule. If you can run a game that fast, go for it.

A public message board or stock market mechanic is tempting.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-02-2016, 11:11 PM
Post: #28
RE: Credithunt
Investments?

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12-03-2016, 02:07 AM
Post: #29
RE: Credithunt
(12-02-2016 08:39 PM)TehPilot Wrote:  Very short day cycles are prohibitive for me. I can't manage 12 hour days with my schedule. If you can run a game that fast, go for it.
I doubt I could manage even playing 12 hour days.

The thing I liked about last game is that, like witchhunt, it was simple to keep track of. Unlike witchhunt, the roles were based on credits and there was strategy concerning when to use the credits. Keep that in mind when adding general game mechanics. The roles themselves are more important.
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12-03-2016, 11:32 AM
Post: #30
RE: Credithunt
(12-03-2016 02:07 AM)speedchuck Wrote:  
(12-02-2016 08:39 PM)TehPilot Wrote:  Very short day cycles are prohibitive for me. I can't manage 12 hour days with my schedule. If you can run a game that fast, go for it.
I doubt I could manage even playing 12 hour days.

The thing I liked about last game is that, like witchhunt, it was simple to keep track of. Unlike witchhunt, the roles were based on credits and there was strategy concerning when to use the credits. Keep that in mind when adding general game mechanics. The roles themselves are more important.

I actually kinda DIDN'T like that about the last game, it made credits feel less like a game mechanic and more like an aspect of my role. This might just be because my role was Donor, though...

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(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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12-06-2016, 08:55 PM
Post: #31
RE: Credithunt
To expand on some ideas: not a fan of roleblocks. It would be inconvenient for someone to get completely shut down having managed their credits carefully all game.

I'm somewhat at a loss for what to do with the Donor role. I think the buffs would make it less awful to play, but not sure if it benefits gameplay. Perhaps something akin to the Clown from Tinyhunt, where you leave a 1 credit donation signed specifically from the role?

Been thinking about investments as a replacement for the doublevote - drop credits in the bank, they gain over time. I think it might be cool to introduce a scum stock market crash type mechanic to a role - it lets them defund town players looking to invest, but if they put money in the bank to help foreclosures, it hurts them. Only unknowns for this are exact deposit and withdrawal times (before / after day? pull money out at the end of a night cycle?) and the formula for it (is one credit gain per day sufficient, or should a more complex formula/table be employed).

As for the Director, two ideas:

The Judge - Spend six (6) Credits to override a lynch vote.
The Philanthropist - Every day the Director is alive, this fact is noted in public chat.

Going to probably go through with every other change listed in the other post.

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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12-07-2016, 09:18 AM
Post: #32
RE: Credithunt
Instinct says pin down the investment mechanic before deciding what to do with Donor.

Reason: One option is to give the current Investor ability to the Donor (where it still makes perfect sense) and give the Investor a new ability that has to do with the new investment mechanic. Maybe something that makes the market crash harder/less valuable for scum, so they want to try and hunt down the Investor before using it?

Judge overriding a lynch vote seems too powerful with the Director passive. Assuming deadchat does the sensible thing and tries to give a credit to scum when the Judge probably has 6 or more, it's basically just "spend 6 credits for a directed lynch hit".

Philanthropist probably wants a name change to avoid confusion with the Donor. Could change it to "President" and have the notification be that they tweet something offensive and/or asinine every morning, and you know they're dead when they finally stop. Other than that it's an interesting role, although maybe disconnected from the passive it has at that point. Might also be slightly weak...it would be cool if they got to pick whether the notification got sent out (so they can play mindgames with scum RE: whether they're alive or not) and/or they got to actually specify a message to go into the daystart post.

Other options for the role slot include:
- Granting the dead player group extra credits to pass on to other players
- Medium-style active that spends a bunch of credits to chat with someone dead for a day and/or night

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(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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12-09-2016, 11:06 PM
Post: #33
RE: Credithunt
So do you think we'll be able to get this up and running soon? Or are we just taking it slow for the time being?

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12-13-2016, 10:31 PM
Post: #34
RE: Credithunt
Definitely not until January - I'm pretty booked for the duration of my school's final exam period, and then I'm going on vacation and will have other business to attend to during that time.

(And on that note, I probably won't have much to say balancewise until finals are done. Vacation time's a good time to tackle that sort of stuff, however!)

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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02-06-2017, 09:04 AM
Post: #35
RE: Credithunt
So, uh...

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(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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02-11-2017, 02:23 PM
Post: #36
RE: Credithunt
please stop killing people in the name of your dark god, me.

Edited for Readability and Preservation of Sanity - The Revolution - OP - Chapter 1/2 - Chapter 2/2 (missing maps) - Chapter 2 - Chapter 3 (Ongoing) - Chat
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02-13-2017, 09:49 AM
Post: #37
RE: Credithunt
(02-11-2017 02:23 PM)ICantGiveCredit Wrote:  please stop killing people in the name of your dark god, me.

Wait...

This is credithunt, right?

Okay cool, I found him, I win :v

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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