Complete The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
03-01-2015, 03:16 AM
Post: #251
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
...it's the fact that the spies DON'T instantly lose, because they still get a chance to pick Merlin.

They should know that anyway but I didn't really want to make it obvious.
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03-01-2015, 03:17 AM
Post: #252
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 02:45 AM)Lawsome Wrote:  
(03-01-2015 02:30 AM)phantomEclipse Wrote:  alright

yolo mcfuckall, pick your 4th town and use your old team and we'll see the shitstorm that brews

im telling you right now, mission 2 WILL fail
If the next team does fail don't think anyone's going to drop their spyreads on you.

ill take all the spy reads. my presence will still be here

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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03-01-2015, 06:15 AM
Post: #253
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Yeah, Reaverb, it's a little wrong to say that spies have no incentive to not fail a mission. Strategic voting is very possible, especially with Oberron, so honestly, just sticking with D1 + 4th person is a risky move. The 4th can easily turn out to be scum (assuming that Team 1 is all town, you have ~57% chance to pick scum out of the remaining seven players), and you cannot rule out the possibility that there is a scum player hidden on D1's team. (In fact, with random choices, there is only a 21.6% chance that D1 team does NOT contain scum).

Based on this insistence for D1 + 4th, instead of a more reasonable 2 from day 1 + 2 others (Which allows better trust-checking of players), I would say that I will not approve any teams with Reaverb on them. I just cannot trust someone who is super-insistent on a certain team, especially when there is a large chance of failure because it is possible that there is a scum player who has voted strategically D1.

The one, the only, Vancho!
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03-01-2015, 07:44 AM
Post: #254
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(02-28-2015 11:35 PM)Palamedes Wrote:  Can you tell me why scum would not fail the first mission? What do they have to gain by just letting it pass (some minor trust) over what they lose (a chance to cause early confusion and put town on the defensive where they perform poorest).
Because if they pass a 3 person mission (the easiest one for town to succeed, numerically), then town has NO INFORMATION on who is scum for the more difficult missions. Logically, failing this mission would pinpoint scum really early, give town a lot of information for the later and more difficult missions. Scum has plenty of motive to pass the first mission.

I like Lawsome, and if I was going to replace a person on this team (from the original three), it would be him.

And, by the way, don't think that spies can be incredibly organized in this game, as they are in mafia. Everyone is talking about their motives, and the like. They don't have a spychat to convene in, like they do in mafia, in case any of you missed that.
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03-01-2015, 08:46 AM
Post: #255
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 06:15 AM)Vancho1 Wrote:  Based on this insistence for D1 + 4th, instead of a more reasonable 2 from day 1 + 2 others (Which allows better trust-checking of players), I would say that I will not approve any teams with Reaverb on them. I just cannot trust someone who is super-insistent on a certain team, especially when there is a large chance of failure because it is possible that there is a scum player who has voted strategically D1.
Woah woah woah a few questions here because I am not understanding this:

What do you mean by "trust checking"?
We have to get 3 of 5 teams to pass, there isn't a huge room for error there, shouldn't we be more concerned with getting teams that pass than anything ele? Why is trustchecking important?
Why would a 2 old 2 new team be more optimised for trust checking than a 3 old 1 new team anyway?
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03-01-2015, 10:28 AM
Post: #256
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
I think that if there is a hidden scum on Day one team, it is better to remove one person based on scumreads and add more towny-seeming people - If the mission succeeds, we have some justification, and if it fails, the person who was excluded looks slightly better.

The one, the only, Vancho!
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03-01-2015, 10:37 AM
Post: #257
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 10:28 AM)Vancho1 Wrote:  I think that if there is a hidden scum on Day one team, it is better to remove one person based on scumreads and add more towny-seeming people - If the mission succeeds, we have some justification, and if it fails, the person who was excluded looks slightly better.
This makes sense, but a Spy throwing success on Mission 1 is such a poor play we should assume that everybody on Mission 1 is Town until they're on a failing team:

Let's assume Town always submits Mission 1 + Fourth as Mission 2 if Mission 1 passes:

If Spy fails Mission 1:
One mission is FAILED, Town knows there is one Spy in three people.

If Spy fails Mission 2:
One mission is PASSED, another FAILED, Town knows there is one Spy in four people.

Having Town get a mission PASS is much worse for spies than adding 1 to the number of people the spy could be hiding in, and that's not even accounting for factors like the Oberon getting on Mission 2 as the fourth and two fail cards getting thrown.

So even if a Spy succeeds the mission and then fails the next it's a terrible move for the spies to make. So it's an extremely rare moves for spies to make - so much that Town should assume everybody on Mission 1 is Town for the purposes of Mission 2, and consider being on Mission 1 a strong argument for being Town for the rest of the game.

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"Testing players" is something which does not mechanically work because if Spies are so afraid of being caught on teams they can just throw success.

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The 9 v. 1 approval argument is nonsense, consider what would have happened if a player had denied the team:

That three player team was considering the pretty consensus, almost every player who posted supported the team.

If the spies had denied that team, they would have had to explain why they denied the team, and more importantly why they didn't bring that up earlier so other people could deny the team too.

So spies needed to argue against the team in the communication phase. But what angle do they have to play there? Everybody on that team was more or less a consensus townread. Only person who could really be argued against is Vancho.

And Spies need five deny votes to deny the team. Where are they going to get that many deny votes?

For DC & donut specifically, denying would have been claiming scum given both had strongly supported similar teams in the past (donut wanted 2 out of 3 of {reaverb, Pala, Vancho} on his team, DC supported every team with Pala)

So assuming DC, donut, reaverb, Pala, and Vancho approve...somehow {Goomba, Lawsome, MV, phantomEclipse, speedchuck} would have to have all thrown deny to deny the team.
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03-01-2015, 11:24 AM
Post: #258
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
@reaverb: If Speed doesn't propose Speed + D1 team, will you auto-fail him based on the fact that he didn't at this point? (Assume he doesn't offer any more reasoning than he has now)

@Palamedes: Same question.
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03-01-2015, 11:42 AM
Post: #259
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Yes.

And I wouldn't approve the Mission 1 + speedchuck team either under those circumstances.

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@Palamedes If speedchuck's mission was denied what team would you suggest?
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(03-01-2015 07:44 AM)speedchuck Wrote:  Because if they pass a 3 person mission (the easiest one for town to succeed, numerically), then town has NO INFORMATION on who is scum for the more difficult missions. Logically, failing this mission would pinpoint scum really early, give town a lot of information for the later and more difficult missions. Scum has plenty of motive to pass the first mission.
See #257, failing Mission 2 gives Town almost as much information but also gives Town a mission Success.
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03-01-2015, 02:02 PM
Post: #260
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
I am really worried about this whole argument. Everyone seems to be pushing either "totally do this exact thing for the rest of the game" or "everyone that disagrees with me is a spy" or "hey all those guys over there are stupid, watch me not propose anything" or some combination of those options. All this arguing looks like a horrible mess of winey chaos and I'm 99% certain spies are trying to push something but I don't know what that is.

Here's an idea: instead of just throwing the same arguments back and forth, why don't we start forming actual reads based on the discussion? I appreciate that this is important, but wasting day on this is turning it into Votals: The Game.
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03-01-2015, 02:20 PM
Post: #261
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 10:37 AM)reaverb Wrote:  This makes sense, but a Spy throwing success on Mission 1 is such a poor play we should assume that everybody on Mission 1 is Town until they're on a failing team:

Bullshit, this is definitely not true. Mission 1 failure narrows down spies much more than subsequent missions, and spies definitely will want themselves to seem like town. In fact, this sort of argument is probably what a spy who throws success D1 wants people to think like.

I have a serious scumread on reaverb from this.

The one, the only, Vancho!
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03-01-2015, 02:54 PM
Post: #262
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Vancho, can you address my argument before you declare my opinion to be wrong?

(03-01-2015 02:20 PM)Vancho1 Wrote:  Mission 1 failure narrows down spies much more than subsequent missions
This statement in particular needs support, since I do not see how 1 Spy in 3 is significantly worse than 1 Spy in 4. Particularly when compared to the extreme value of denying Town a Mission Success.
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03-01-2015, 03:02 PM
Post: #263
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Leaning towards a team of myself, Lawsome, Vancho, and one of Reaverb or Pala. I'm kinda thinking my team is going to get denied regardless, because I brought up the controversial idea that scum could be on mission one. I am having a really hard time with reading right now.
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03-01-2015, 03:06 PM
Post: #264
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Ninja'd
Reaverb, think of information in this game. It gets more valuable as time goes on. So, should the mafia give town information now, and deal with the interest later, or take a blow now, and give town information later when it won't do them as much good? IT'S A FRIGGIN' MATTER OF OPINION!
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03-01-2015, 03:14 PM
Post: #265
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
there's the magic word


(03-01-2015 03:06 PM)speedchuck Wrote:  OPINION!

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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03-01-2015, 03:53 PM
Post: #266
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
@Mister Visceral Please post. Answering my question from forever ago would be a good start.

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(03-01-2015 02:02 PM)Mecha_Goomba Wrote:  I am really worried about this whole argument. Everyone seems to be pushing either "totally do this exact thing for the rest of the game" or "everyone that disagrees with me is a spy" or "hey all those guys over there are stupid, watch me not propose anything" or some combination of those options. All this arguing looks like a horrible mess of winey chaos and I'm 99% certain spies are trying to push something but I don't know what that is.
I just want to for the team Mission 2 to be reaverb/Pala/Vancho/Lawsome.

If that team succeeds (which I think it will), Town has a mechanical victory short of a Merlin Assassination by also sending that team on Mission 3.

I suppose my contingency if that Mission 2 proposal goes on a mission and fails would be "still think the Mission 1 people are likely Town" but I'm 90% sure if we send off that Mission 2 team it's game over Town wins and that isn't a world which needs planning for unless it happens.

I think the spies are pushing the "Don't trust Mission 1" angle, because
A) If we trust the Mission 1 people and that's correct Town has said "Mechanical Victory short of Merlin shoot".

B) So many people supported it {DC, phantomEclipse, speedchuck, Lawsome, Vancho} I have a hard time thinking of scumteam where that group doesn't a spy in it. (4 out of {Pala, MV, Goomba, donut} is kinda ??? given how both MV and Goomba denied the Pala/donut/reaverb team)

C) I do not understand the chain of logic which could lead to this belief, enough I find the idea half the playerlist sincerely believes it unlikely.

My reads based on that argument is that it makes me feel worse about speedchuck/Lawsome and better about Pala. The main effect of this is to make feel more secure in my current worldview. (phantomEclipse/DC/dount Spies + MV Oberon, with speedchuck spy has the next most likely world with some of those other spy candiates) although I do feel very slightly worse about donut!spy and Lawsome!Town.
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(03-01-2015 03:06 PM)speedchuck Wrote:  Ninja'd
Reaverb, think of information in this game. It gets more valuable as time goes on. So, should the mafia give town information now, and deal with the interest later, or take a blow now, and give town information later when it won't do them as much good? IT'S A FRIGGIN' MATTER OF OPINION!
It's a matter of opinion the same way "no lynch is optimal Day 1" is a matter of opinion.

Yes there are some valuation differences you can lean on and technically call an "opinion" but in reality it's pretty clear that no lynch Day 1 is a very bad move if you want to win.

As with Vancho, please address my argument in #257 if you think that we should approve a mission other than Mission 1 + Fourth. Here, I've drawn out the relevant bit for you:
(03-01-2015 10:37 AM)reaverb Wrote:  a Spy throwing success on Mission 1 is such a poor play we should assume that everybody on Mission 1 is Town until they're on a failing team:

Let's assume Town always submits Mission 1 + Fourth as Mission 2 if Mission 1 passes:

If Spy fails Mission 1:
One mission is FAILED, Town knows there is one Spy in three people.

If Spy fails Mission 2:
One mission is PASSED, another FAILED, Town knows there is one Spy in four people.

Having Town get a mission PASS is much worse for spies than adding 1 to the number of people the spy could be hiding in, and that's not even accounting for factors like the Oberon getting on Mission 2 as the fourth and two fail cards getting thrown.

So even if a Spy succeeds the mission and then fails the next it's a terrible move for the spies to make. So it's an extremely rare moves for spies to make - so much that Town should assume everybody on Mission 1 is Town for the purposes of Mission 2, and consider being on Mission 1 a strong argument for being Town for the rest of the game.

(Note that doesn't say a spy throwing success is 100% impossible. It's just so unlikely that approving Mission 1 + Fourth in this situation is always correct.)
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03-01-2015, 03:57 PM
Post: #267
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 03:02 PM)speedchuck Wrote:  because I brought up the controversial idea that scum could be on mission one.
Also what? phantomEclipse and DC brought up that idea way before you did.

Like you even quoted phantomEclipse in #238
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03-01-2015, 04:26 PM
Post: #268
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
The fact that this is sufficiently divisive means that we can't really draw ANY conclusions. You can argue that it's suboptimal play until you're blue in the face, reaverb, that doesn't mean it's not what the spy team DID. And given the number of people arguing against you, I feel relatively confident saying that enough players think throwing success D1 is a reasonable spy strategy and therefore any hypothetical spy on the D1 mission could have thought the same way.

tl;dr I don't care what the best play was, I care what the play the spies took was. Do you have any argument that says they didn't do this as opposed to they shouldn't have done it?

Anyway. We have no way of telling whether there was a spy on the D1 team or not, we can't assume there was or there wasn't, we need to keep both options in mind, blah blah BLAH, this is wasting time. I feel like Speed + D1 is going to be unproductive as we all have great excuses to accept OR deny it, so we learn basically nothing from people's votes. Being unfamiliar with this game, what would be a good team for Speed to propose that gives us information when we see how the votes fall?
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03-01-2015, 04:41 PM
Post: #269
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 03:53 PM)reaverb Wrote:  C) I do not understand the chain of logic which could lead to this belief
Doesn't mean it isn't valid.

(03-01-2015 03:53 PM)reaverb Wrote:  It's a matter of opinion the same way "no lynch is optimal Day 1" is a matter of opinion.
Not even. That's a terrible comparison. DC is right, in that what the spies do doesn't necessarily have to be optimal, but even so. If I was on that mission as scum, and I knew there were people like you in the game, I'd pass it. Yeah, it's a little bit of a gambit, but I would immediately pass it.
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03-01-2015, 05:14 PM
Post: #270
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
My argument is simple: It is not, in fact, unlikely for a spy to throw success Mission one, and thus your whole chain of reasoning, which hinges on this sole point, falls apart. Failing Mission One gives a one in 3 chance for a spy, and mission 2 a one in 4. True, it is not that much of a difference. But, by failing the mission with more people, the spy also casts suspicion on more people.

Town getting a mission pass is not in fact fatal for scum - town wants to prevent failures, but scum does not need failures to win. Even though failing missions is scum's primary way of winning, if they can increase the probability that scum are picked for subsequent missions, then they also increase the chance for failure.

Take your example: One spy on the Mission One team, succeeds first time, fails second time.

That means that there are four people in doubt going into mission 3, with 1 fail and 1 success. If only one of those 4 is a spy, that means that the remaining 3 spies are among the remaining 6 people - which, if you avoid everyone from Mission Two, guarantees that Mission 3 fails (by guaranteeing a scum player on that team). Then, town is left in a tricky situation - 2 failures and 1 success, going into Mission 4. Mission 4 is of course designed to help town by requiring two failures, but it is very possible to pick two scum for that team (especially when a lot of people have been placed in doubt), and even if 4 succeeds, town needs to pick PERFECTLY for mission 5 to win.

Here, I have described a situation where the spy team benefits from not failing mission One, and so your argument does not hold. We cannot discount the possibility of a spy on the Mission One team, and since you have been so vehemently arguing against the possibility, I have no choice but to suspect that it is, in fact, you.

The one, the only, Vancho!
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03-01-2015, 05:16 PM
Post: #271
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
EBWOP: Basically, scum has more of an advantage on later missions because more players must be picked, so if they can muddle everyone's reads, there's a fair chance that we can be in a sticky situation come mission 4 and 5.

The one, the only, Vancho!
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03-01-2015, 06:38 PM
Post: #272
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 05:14 PM)Vancho1 Wrote:  That means that there are four people in doubt going into mission 3, with 1 fail and 1 success. If only one of those 4 is a spy, that means that the remaining 3 spies are among the remaining 6 people - which, if you avoid everyone from Mission Two, guarantees that Mission 3 fails (by guaranteeing a scum player on that team).
Why are you assuming Town would ignore everybody on Mission 2 for Mission 3? That's a terrible idea precisely because there's quite likely more spies off the Mission than on.

Anyway you can create a "tricky situation" much more easily if you assume the Spy fails the first mission. First Mission fails, Town knows there's one spy out of 3. Town picks a second Spy to go on Mission 2 (since either Town needs to perfectly pick 4 Townies not on the first Mission or pick from the Mission 1 failteam and risk hitting the same spy again, which still requires picking 3 out of 4 townies off-mission) and suddenly Town needs to succeed Missions 3, 4, & 5 with only a couple Mission fails and interactions to help them out.

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Ok, I still don't think the "Spies could have played suboptimally" idea is good (if Spies did that we're in luck and don't need to exploit it) but even if you assume that spies would almost always throw success Mission 1 + Fourth still makes sense:

A) A Successful Mission is still evidence everybody on it is Town. Any of the worlds were there was a spy on the mission choosing the vote fail are gone, so everybody on the mission looks Town-ier for having those worlds eliminated.

B) reaverb/Pala/Vancho were the top townreads on this mission, and all the reasons for townreading us still apply. Does anybody besides Vancho want to make a case that one of us is scum, or at least scummier than somebody who has wasn't on the team?

Counter-counterarguments:
9 v. 1 thing is still bad because as I said in #257 scum denying that team would look pretty bad and would be unlikely to actually have the team denied.

"Information" teams are dumb because if Mission 2 is all Town we can send the same team on Mission 3 and cash in our hat trick. Gaining more information beyond "these four guys are Town" would not help Town's victory chances in any way.
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03-01-2015, 07:46 PM
Post: #273
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Ok there's a lot of things being said I can' reply to all point so I'll say this.

I STILL don't follow Vancho's argument for a 2 2 scumteam. We have only the 9 v 1 argument to suggest that there was scum on mission one, that's not enough evidence to know for certain. Reaverb consistently made good points as to why spies would vote for an all town team. Even if we exclude the scummiest member of M1 JUST IN CASE, that required bringing in 2 new people. I think there's more likely to be a spy amongst those two people you bring in than in the one member of M1 you booted out.

I also however, to be devil's advocate, DON'T think it would be suboptimal play for a spy to allow M1 to pass if they were on the team. I can see why a spy might think that's a good idea, to make them look very townie to everyone else. But I still feel it's more likely that M1 was just all town, rather than 2 town and one very crafty spy.

If M2 fails THAN maybe we can start considering one of M1 was a spy.


Also @reaverb: I don't like how you're painting the people who disagree with you as spies, there are more people sympathising with this idea than there are spies in the game so clearly there's more to it than you think.
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03-02-2015, 01:20 AM
Post: #274
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
ok some things
i'm inclined to believe all m1 town,especially pala because his previous resistance game(as spy) he was on m1 he didn't pass the mission

if m2 fails i would put vancho or whoever gets added as susp, and reaverb would warrant a reread
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03-02-2015, 02:45 AM
Post: #275
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
@Lawsome/everyone else who thinks passing M1 as scum is not suboptimal:

Spies passing M1 and then failing M2 does literally the same thing - casts doubt and forces town to re-evaluate. Except, you've given town a free pass, so you've forfeited most of the advantage you gained by allowing the score to be tied. Failing M1 means that town now has to guess between three as to who's scum, and even if they guess right (assuming they put both town in M2) there's still an almost 50% chance that either of the other two people who get in will be spies.
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03-02-2015, 04:10 AM
Post: #276
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
@pala: that's a pretty good point, didn't think about it that way.

The question that should settle it is, has anyone actually seen a game in which the spies have done this?
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03-02-2015, 04:47 AM
Post: #277
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 07:46 PM)Lawsome Wrote:  Also @reaverb: I don't like how you're painting the people who disagree with you as spies, there are more people sympathising with this idea than there are spies in the game so clearly there's more to it than you think.
There are enough people sympathising with this idea that I find it difficult to believe there /isn't/ as Spy among them, particularly since most of my top scumreads pushed that worldview to some degree or another and Spies have extremely strong incentives to push that worldview if it's incorrect.

I still believe Vancho looks Town there.

I do think speedchuck looks worse for supporting it but I didn't want him placed on a team even before that. He's not a top tier suspect but I could see something like speedchuck/phantomEclipse/donut spies.
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03-02-2015, 05:40 AM
Post: #278
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Okay, you can say it's suboptimal or whatever, I just know that when I played this with some friends in person, they told me that scum throwing fail on Mission one is a risky move. I still don't trust Reaverb, because something tells me that I shouldn't.

The one, the only, Vancho!
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03-02-2015, 06:25 AM
Post: #279
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
@everyone that doesn't like reaverb's theory: If not M1 plus townread, what team would you propose? What makes that team better than M1 plus townread?

@everyone that likes reaverb's theory: If going M1 plus townread is such a sure path to victory, wouldn't the spies have fought tooth and nail to get a spy on M1? Also, if M2 was M1 plus townread and it failed, who would you suspect most?
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03-02-2015, 07:16 AM
Post: #280
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-02-2015 05:40 AM)Vancho1 Wrote:  I just know that when I played this with some friends in person, they told me that scum throwing fail on Mission one is a risky move.
Go and play again with your friends, throw fail Mission 1 as spy for the win :D

Yeah I can see it being much harder to math that out in RL play, but I think a good spy would still fail the first mission in RL too. (maybe 1 spy in 3 is much more informative than 1 spy in 4 in RL play, since you don't have tons of time to search through the worlds).

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(03-02-2015 06:25 AM)Mecha_Goomba Wrote:  @everyone that likes reaverb's theory: If going M1 plus townread is such a sure path to victory, wouldn't the spies have fought tooth and nail to get a spy on M1? Also, if M2 was M1 plus townread and it failed, who would you suspect most?
I think spies trying to argue for a different Mission 1 team would have been more likely to scumfirm them then help, that's pretty close to "9 v. 1" thing I've been railing against.

Spies are doing pretty well arguing against the sending M1 + fourth right now in this world, so they probably thought waiting to argue against the M1 being all Town would be more productive. It's also possibly the fourth townread is scum, I don't know which townreads the scum would think would be likely be chosen as the fourth.

Or scum just goofed and didn't math out how good a Mission 1 success is for Town.

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If M2 failed I would suspect the Fourth the most, followed distantly by Pala. I don't see Vancho being scum ever. I would probably push for M1 + Fifth to be the M3 team, but I haven't done the analysis yet and could be persuaded otherwise. Pala still has strong mission result independent reasons for me to think he's Town (pushing the Vancho townread early which is no pretty clearly correct now, denying two teams with him on it including the donut team which needed only one more approval).
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03-02-2015, 07:54 AM
Post: #281
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
I propose the following team: Palamedes/Vancho/reaverb/speedchuck

As strongly as I disagree with the idea that there cannot be a scum on mission one, it looks like this is the prevailing theory, and I at least agree that them all three being town is more likely. If this is a gambit, then they are pulling it off nicely. Maybe it's because I played this more in person than on the internet, but scum often let a mission pass because it makes town panic a lot more later in the game, and makes them less sure of things. The game usually comes down to whether town has figured out the scumteam or not, as opposed to the number of fails and successes.

Reaverb, humor me for a second. What if two scum got onto mission one, and couldn't talk to each other outside of the game. Put yourself in that position. Pass, or fail?
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03-02-2015, 08:11 AM
Post: #282
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
@Chuck: While that is a good point, assuming reaverb is representing his actual opinion he's probably town. His pre-game proposition of a strategy for the spies to avoid multifailure would make him the person responsible for failing the mission as a spy. So it'd have to be Pala + Vancho wining each other out of failing the mission.

(On the other hand, a number of ephemeral restrictions on a given behaviour by scum and no mechanical/"hard and fast" ones is a great recipe for using wine to try and prove oneself town)
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03-02-2015, 08:16 AM
Post: #283
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-02-2015 07:54 AM)speedchuck Wrote:  Reaverb, humor me for a second. What if two scum got onto mission one, and couldn't talk to each other outside of the game. Put yourself in that position. Pass, or fail?
Fail. I would assume that my partner would be using the metarule I suggested before the game started, so this would end with one fail card being thrown.

I don't think anybody has said that scum on Mission 1 is impossible? Just unlikely enough that the best Mission 2 team is clearly Mission 1 team + Fourth.
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03-02-2015, 08:18 AM
Post: #284
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
@Goomba
(i am in the support reaver group)
first off, thats a super winey post
two scenarios come outta that:
1.) spies push, fail. under suspicion bc mission succeeds
2. spies push, succeed. under suspicion bc pushed for a possible spy.
second question, speed then vancho
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03-02-2015, 08:20 AM
Post: #285
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-02-2015 08:16 AM)reaverb Wrote:  Fail. I would assume that my partner would be using the metarule I suggested before the game started, so this would end with one fail card being thrown.
Ah. I forgot about that. Also:
(01-28-2015 11:31 AM)reaverb Wrote:  So for example, if spies pE and speedchuck were on the first mission with Town dc, pE should always vote success and speedchuck should vote fail if they believe it is correct (perhaps speedchuck could believe that having everybody believe mission 1 to be Town is better, so he could vote succeed to make the mission succeed).
Heh.
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03-02-2015, 08:29 AM
Post: #286
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
I was very much getting a "spies on mission 1 is basically impossible" vibe from you, reaverb, which is what was alarming me. Maybe because of the level of zeal with which you're arguing your case? Anyway yeah you saying that clears a few things up.

Crack theory: Entire D1 team was spies :V
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03-02-2015, 08:31 AM
Post: #287
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
@Amos Is there a chance Mister Visceral will be replaced? He hasn't posted in-thread for a week and a half (although he has silently voted on missions)

--

Does somebody have a strong argument speedchuck is more likely Town than Lawsome? Because I would highly prefer Lawsome be the fourth over speedchuck (and so I am denying this team).

I think I've given significant opinions/explanations on both in the past, if somebody wants me to compile everything together and make a single case I will.

@Pala Already asked you this but you might have missed this - what team would you propose if speedchuck's is denied.
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03-02-2015, 08:43 AM
Post: #288
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
I would also prefer Lawsome, to be honest.

The one, the only, Vancho!
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03-02-2015, 10:42 AM
Post: #289
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
(03-01-2015 02:30 AM)phantomEclipse Wrote:  alright

yolo mcfuckall, pick your 4th town and use your old team and we'll see the shitstorm that brews

im telling you right now, mission 2 WILL fail

this tho^^^

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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03-02-2015, 11:20 PM
Post: #290
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
I'm not sure if M1+townread is a good idea, but I know Lawsome is better for the fourth than speed if M1+townread is a good idea. So I'm going to vote deny to this one, but I don't know what I would vote given a reaver/pala/vancho/lawsome team. I'll do a reread of all the arguments when the time comes.
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03-02-2015, 11:29 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2015 12:05 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #291
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Just a reminder:

Please send your votes by PM to me with the title in this format:
Resistance M#R# - <Approve/Deny>

It makes things so much easier.
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03-03-2015, 01:41 AM
Post: #292
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
So sorry guys, was busy.

(03-01-2015 11:24 AM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  @reaverb: If Speed doesn't propose Speed + D1 team, will you auto-fail him based on the fact that he didn't at this point? (Assume he doesn't offer any more reasoning than he has now)

@Palamedes: Same question.

Yes. Non-issue now.

(03-01-2015 11:42 AM)reaverb Wrote:  @Palamedes If speedchuck's mission was denied what team would you suggest?

Probably Lawsome? Maybe donut. dC/Goomba are also things I could probably be brought to support too since I don't see many problems in their more recent posts.

(03-01-2015 02:20 PM)Vancho1 Wrote:  In fact, this sort of argument is probably what a spy who throws success D1 wants people to think like.

If you weren't pinging so many townsignals for me, I would think you are scum solely based on this. Especially given the fact that I am pretty sure you are wrong in most cases (I'll come to this later).

(03-01-2015 05:14 PM)Vancho1 Wrote:  Here, I have described a situation where the spy team benefits from not failing mission One, and so your argument does not hold. We cannot discount the possibility of a spy on the Mission One team, and since you have been so vehemently arguing against the possibility, I have no choice but to suspect that it is, in fact, you.

This works the exact same way (I'd argue it works better) with a M1 failure, especially since then town can be in trouble by Mission three, which isn't biased towards scum.

(03-02-2015 05:40 AM)Vancho1 Wrote:  Okay, you can say it's suboptimal or whatever, I just know that when I played this with some friends in person, they told me that scum throwing fail on Mission one is a risky move. I still don't trust Reaverb, because something tells me that I shouldn't.

This is something I've heard too. What I believe it comes from is the fact that with smaller games, where Mission one has only two players, failing it means you have to out-argue the other person in the group, who knows you're scum now, 100%. In games with Merlin, this is an even bigger problem since 2/3 town have you scumfirmed. That logic seems to have somehow transferred to larger games even though that is no longer an issue (well, sort of, but not even close to as much).

Not sure what I'll do with this team. speed's pinged some bad things, but I don't have him as being nearly as scum as, say, pE. The amount of 'nope autodeny this' is also concerning. I'd also like the ability to choose a M3 team if there IS a failure.

How much longer do we have?
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03-03-2015, 02:27 AM
Post: #293
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
Topic title needs to change.

@Pala
If my team is denied, and you would throw in Lawsome on your team next, I'd approve.
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03-03-2015, 02:36 AM
Post: #294
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
i'm gonna approve this bc speed isn't majorly scummy to me and if it goes through and is sabotaged i could pick out who i think is scum from the team
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03-03-2015, 12:51 PM
Post: #295
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
I think we have around another day left.

---

(03-03-2015 01:41 AM)Palamedes Wrote:  The amount of 'nope autodeny this' is also concerning. I'd also like the ability to choose a M3 team if there IS a failure.
I actually had the exact opposite thought! Goomba and Lawsome are the only players not on Mission 1 have objected to speedchuck's inclusion, which strikes me as really weird because speedchuck has been one of my scummier reads for a while. (For example, he accepted the donut/Pala/reaverb team along with phantomEclipse, donut, and the 2 people who wanted to accept any team for Mission 1).

donut, a highly plausible teammate if speedchuck is scum, has supported placing speedchuck on the team despite saying this earlier:
(03-01-2015 12:13 AM)icanhasdonut Wrote:  
(02-28-2015 03:27 PM)reaverb Wrote:  @dount
Besides yourself, who would you support for being in a reaverb/Pala/Vancho/Fourth team?

How likely would you rank the "scum threw success" world for this mission (as opposed to the Mission being all Town)?
i would support someone like lawsome probably, if only because i trust them more then everyone else because everyone else is somewhat susp 2 me/completely lurky

So spies could be unanimously supporting speedchuck if they're donut/speedchuck/phantomEclipse (well phantomEclipse is acting so out there he's not really commenting on whether he supports speedchuck)

---

Also Pala why are you supporting speed now when you said this earlier:
(02-28-2015 04:27 PM)Palamedes Wrote:  Basically here I think we have scum pushing a ridiculous logical fallacy. On that note I think pE and speed are scum.

(I think we can rely on Vancho to deliver a good Mission 3 team if we have to pass your mission.)
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03-03-2015, 04:58 PM
Post: #296
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: Mission 1 Round 3
speed seemed to just not get it, since as far as I can tell he rescinded his attitude regarding the team pretty quickly (while pE kept with it).
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03-04-2015, 08:30 AM
Post: #297
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: M2R1
Ugh alright I realized I forgot to approve/deny the team and looking back I'm... still unsure? While there are better people than speed there are also worse ones, but if it succeeds or is denied and mine succeeds who gets to choose M3 doesn't really matter.

Any last arguments to sway me one way or another?
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03-04-2015, 08:42 AM
Post: #298
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: M2R1
One of the things with resistence is that if a team is approved, that becomes evidence there were spies on it.

Like, we don't which way Mister Visceral is going to vote one way or the other. If he's a spy and speed is also a spy, MV is probably going to 100% approve that team to get a mission fail. If speed isn't a spy and MV is a spy, the team will be denied anyway.

So I'd tiebreak in favor of deny.

(This is also true for the 9 v. 1 on Mission 1, I just put a low probability for that team to have been denied so the evidence isn't strong.)
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03-04-2015, 09:03 AM
Post: #299
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: M2R1
Pala, given you're selecting the next team I don't think you actually have any reason to approve. Unless Chuck's team is your first choice, of course.
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03-04-2015, 09:06 AM
Post: #300
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: M2R1
True. It's not as strong with M1 since it having all town on it and passing doesn't spell the end for scum. A M2 mission passing after a M1 success does.
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