Complete The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
03-15-2015, 02:50 PM
Post: #401
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
I actually think that Mordred should exist outside of Oberon. Oberon is actually something that, a lot of the time, weakens the scumteam's overall power by messing with their knowledge of each other while still giving said knowledge to Merlin, and on the other hand Mordred serves as a way to weaken Merlin (plus the fun aside of making narrowing down Merlin a little bit more of a challenge than it normally might be since Merlin will make errors more naturally).
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03-15-2015, 02:56 PM
Post: #402
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
Yes the existence of a "doomday scenario" on Mission 1 is itself bad, no matter how unlikely it is.

I think the fundamental problem is that a Mission successes, in addition to being Town's win condition, give Town way more information than Mission Failures.

The Merlin idea is that if 3 Townies get send M1 at least Town doesn't have Merlin, and Merlin can't lead Town to a triple Town Mission (as Pala himself did by arguing for Vancho!Town, in retrospect).
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03-15-2015, 03:02 PM
Post: #403
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
I'm not sure Merlin in general is a great idea.

The "scum can hit Merlin for an instant-win" is an awful mechanic, there is basically nothing non-Merlin Townies can do to avoid losing that way (except have excellent reads I guess but they are already encouraged to do that), and it gives scum a 1/6th chance to win no matter what.

Merlin might be fun to play but it sounds like a super-high pressure role given that if you mess up Town Loses.

My alternative idea:
New role called "Town Spy".

When spies receive their list of team mates at the beginning of the game, the Town Spy role is mixed in (Like Witchhunt Spies and Junior Witches).

Town Spy knows they are the Town Spy and can throw fail cards, but does NOT know who the other spies are.
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03-15-2015, 03:08 PM
Post: #404
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
(03-15-2015 02:47 PM)dichotomousCreator Wrote:  I'd argue that the mere existence of a doomsday scenario like that is a balance/fun issue, frankly. Pressure on the spies is good, but presenting them with an objective they absolutely HAVE to meet early on gives them an easy behavioural tell. Since town can afford to accidentally approve a spyteam, people who are denying more are spies. There's no real wiggle room for blending in with the town because it'll cause you to lose.

What I'm saying here is that the "Doomsday Scenario" is only really an issue in a world where town has super accurate reads on D1/D2 and the entire scumteam basically just folds. Is it a balance issue for town to win in a world where they successfully pick out the scum very early on? No, they fully deserved to win in that case. Does it cut down on fun for the later days? Maybe, yeah.

Also, giving scum an objective that they absolutely need to achieve to win is kind of 100% necessary, because otherwise trying to solve a game with no flips where 40% of the playerlist is scum becomes infinitely harder for town. If you don't force the scumteam out of their comfort zone every once in awhile, then it becomes super easy for them to just coast straight through endgame.

Tumblr/Steam
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03-15-2015, 04:41 PM
Post: #405
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
Merlin is high pressure yeah, but I don't think it's as terrible a role as, say, Oberon/Mordred. Personally I think it is a natural role to include once you're moving out of vanilla resistance.

dC, I feel you're missing the point that it is important for scum to actually fight things, you guys did sort of just fold and go along with everything town suggested. It's important to fit in, of course, but not all of our logic was infallible. Honestly, the me/reaverb/Vancho team could have easily been rejected since it was only the second team put out there and none of us had things you couldn't criticize us for.

Also: honestly neither team can really afford to just lose M1 without a fight - it's a serious blow for either faction. Town loses its best chance to get solid townreads and scum has to deal with those townreads. Also, even if scum loses it there's a greater than 50% chance that scum will be on M2 if you just picked randomly (and much, much more if scum actually works to get one of their own members on).
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03-15-2015, 05:36 PM
Post: #406
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
I think the biggest issue there was that me and donut had both proposed ourselves + reaverb + you as our teams. So the only real leg we had to stand on refusing your team was that Vancho was scummy, which he...kinda wasn't really? We basically had to go "okay kick Vancho off and replace him with <a spy>" or we'd look inconsistent. Though that might have been more of an issue where none of us actually looked good enough to really push onto a team, so if we had pushed a spy onto D1 and it had failed then D2 would basically have been "okay, the guy who was pushed on was scum and the two people who pushed him on are scum".

I dunno. Maybe I'm overestimating the degree to which pushing for something the spies want will get someone marked as a spy. I basically approved it because I figured anything else was an automatically losing play (i.e. spyteam or most of them at least is outed D1 as "the people that denied the mission that the spyteam HAD to deny or they'd probably lose") and approving was only a PROBABLY losing play (i.e. Oberon could have been on there)

Eh. Chalk it up to first game spy skittishness. I'll just have to be more assertive next time. Would it be fair for the spies to get like a day or two of pre-game chat (without Oberon, obviously) or would that unbalance the game in their favour?

RE: Merlin, the single point of failure aspect worries me. There's no real way to divide his power amongst multiple players, but he's a very swingy role (similar to the whole "first mission is all town" thing, actually). So you have one of these "difficult but slam dunk victory" things per side (for town it's getting all town onto the first mission and for scum it's picking Merlin), which is balanced but I don't think very good for gameplay? Like think how unsatisfying it would have been if we'd poisoned Pala at the end of the game.
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03-15-2015, 06:04 PM
Post: #407
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
People who deny more are spies? Hahahaha
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03-15-2015, 10:37 PM
Post: #408
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
GG everyone. That was a very fun game!

I don't mind merlin, in a game like this one, where town completely trashed the spies, it's nice for the spies to have a small chance of victory at the end, keeps the pressure up till the last moment.
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03-16-2015, 12:52 AM
Post: #409
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
...okay fine I just have no idea how the game works are you happy :VVV
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03-16-2015, 12:59 AM
Post: #410
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
I think what amos means is that logically town has more reason to deny than scum. Town doesn't know who the spies are, and thus is best off denying most teams they're not on (this is especially true later on, and donut will testify to what a scumtell it is to not follow this).

The fact that the second suggestion for M1 was approved was actually surprising.

Lawsome raises another decent point re: Merlin. The role allows for both factions to have a chance to turn things around at the end if everything starts going to hell.
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03-16-2015, 02:01 AM
Post: #411
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
I don't think I would ever join a game of resistance with a Merlin role on it. The idea of working your ass off with the rest of the town to out all the spies just to lose anyway because someone won a d6 roll is probably the single most antifun, broken and straight up detrimental-to-any-kind-of-investment-in-the-game-whatsoever mechanic I've ever seen in my life.
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03-16-2015, 02:21 AM
Post: #412
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
You are assuming that it's just a random pick to find out who Merlin is. Read this game, where reaverb successfully made most of the scumteam think it was him.

Also, if you want to you can just pretend you won outside of a successful Merlin guess.

One other thing though that I'd want to see implemented: In games I've played the Poisoner doesn't get the chance to consult with their teammates after the game ends - they have to choose by themselves without deliberation. I like that rule because it actually gives a purpose to getting the role. Of course, the spies can start consulting publicly if they think they're going to lose, sacrificing their last vestige of secrecy for the ability to collaborate on their backup wincon is a more exciting dynamic than just giving it to them for free.
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03-16-2015, 03:29 AM (This post was last modified: 03-16-2015 04:05 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #413
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
According to the official rules they are allowed to discuss after the game before making an attempt to assassinate. But hey nothing wrong with giving all the responsibility to one!

@druple if scum has to resort to guessing it makes their victory rather pale. Like in all honesty I'd consider it a pretty big win for town if it gets to that point, even if they end up losing.

'course the whole point of Merlin is to not get caught, and it is towns responsibility to look like a good candidate just as much as it is Merlin's task to blend in with them.

Not to mention you could probably apply that sort of notion to just about any mafia game every night. I mean seriously, what are the odds of a vigilante hitting the right target? Assuming an average game, it gives the player 1/4 chance of hitting scum if shooting in the dark. If we add townfirms to that mix, it gets even better. It all comes back to being the same topic; hit or miss.
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03-16-2015, 04:10 AM
Post: #414
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
The difference is of course that a vig hitting a target isn't by itself enough to win the game, you need other factors too. The Merlinguess literally overrides absolutely everything that all the other players have ever done that game.
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03-16-2015, 04:32 AM
Post: #415
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
Yeah I know that's the technical rule amos, I just prefer the added strategy to killing Merlin (plus it makes the poisoner role actually matter, as already stated). It also helps lessen the danger of the Merlinguess at endgame, making scum want to play a bit more aggressively.

Druple, I think you're missing the point. It shouldn't override what the other players have done - they should be actively trying to make themselves look like Merlin, just like Merlin should be trying to make themselves look like someone else. If the Merlinguess actually overrides what town has done, than town hasn't been playing properly.
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03-16-2015, 04:39 AM
Post: #416
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
I think my problem with Merlin is a matter of degree.

In Mafia, Yes Town can keep hitting Townies "by chance" since there's some degree of randomness to tells, Yes Townies can lose no fault of their own if other Townies are absurdly scummy for no reason, and Yes effectively random decisions can decide the result of the game.

But Merlin amplifies all those problems. It places the fate of the game on one single decision. It's not a reasonable challenge for regular Townies to fake being Merlin, given it requires deducing who /all/ the scum are, and only one Townie needs to screw up to throw the game for Town.
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03-16-2015, 04:40 AM (This post was last modified: 03-16-2015 04:50 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #417
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
(03-16-2015 04:10 AM)Druplesnubb Wrote:  The difference is of course that a vig hitting a target isn't by itself enough to win the game, you need other factors too. The Merlinguess literally overrides absolutely everything that all the other players have ever done that game.

Or in mafia, multiple semi-random shots in the dark by multiple roles which can also override the contributions of other players via elimination, etc.

Merlin is basically a compressed version of this down to one choice. So in my eyes its more of a matter of how you value decisions: multiple scenarios leading to an end result, or a making a decision based on the summary of a game's events.

From what I understand, you make much more blind decisions in mafia than you do in the Resistance whre all the evidence is available at endgame because you're not making decisions when there may not be anything to go off of.

So yeah, Im of the opinion that the assassin's kill is significantly more justifiable than the cumulative actions in mafia because there simply is a lot more shots in the dark whereas in the Resistance you have the whole game as reference for one final decision at the end. Its an educated guess, not a roll of the die, because you have everything you need to make an informed decision, obfuscated by how well each faction plays.
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03-16-2015, 04:55 AM
Post: #418
RE: The Resistance: DeFranco's Fine French Cuisine: GAME OVER, 5 Stars!
I'll admit I always had the idea for a town counter to the poison kill - matching the entire scumteam to their role, sans the help of Merlin/Percival. Never really figured out a way to make it work, but yeah.
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