Discussion Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
07-02-2015, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2015 01:34 AM by Druplesnubb.)
Post: #1
Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
All the guests have arrived and the party is in full swing, this year's Royal Candy Kingdom Masquerade Ball seems to be the best one yet! Yet the party's barely started when Peppermint Butler brings some grave news. He's found some secret papers dropped by an unknown partygoer, which reveals that three of the guests aren't who they claim to be! They are in fact the Ice King's minions, who've infiltrated the party in order to kidnap all the princesses! This is terrible news, but this masquerade ball is just too good to stop. You'll just have to identify and throw out the intruders with your costumes still on. But be careful; if you fail, you'll all be trapped in the Ice King's dungeon!

So, even before PE posted his Adventure Mafia I had been thinking of making an Adventure Time themed mafia of my own. Of course I haven't created a setup before, so I have no idea whether this thing is balanced or not. I'm also not sure which direction to go regarding some mechanics and roles. So, since this is an open setup, I've decided to post what I have so far and ask the rest of the community for feedback.

The rules of this game have been created with the aim of solving the problems of previous games. I've already mentioned that this is an open setup game. This decision was made in order to avoid the balance problems that Adventure Mafia and Traffic Jam Mafia had. With the entire community checking the setup instead of just 3 guys, they can hopefully ensure that it is as balanced as possible.
I've also noticed that these forums have trouble supporting more than two games at a time, and many games have problems finding replacements. Thus I've decided to make this game relatively small, with no more than 12 players.
Finally, I've noticed a trend on these boards that heavily favor scum wins, with the exception of games where the town has lots of confirmable powerroles (once again, like Adventure Mafia and Traffic Jam Mafia). Thus I've been tried to have the town roles not too powerful and compared to the scum roles, and having very few of them be identifiable as townroles, but instead lower the power of the scum faction in itself. More on this further below.

The roles are similar to ChocolatePi's Witch Hunt in that most of the roles are team neutral and can be on either side (here termed Side Characters), with a few powerful roles that are exclusive to the town (referred to as Main Characters). This has the advantage of solving massclaims without having to involve obliteration mechanics and still making claiming useful in some situations. The full list of roles are below.

Main Characters:
Princess Bubblegum: I have three ideas for her. The first is a regular Gifter. The other is a modconfirmer (like Equius from Dersehunt). The third is more complicated and most likely hella unbalanced. More info below.
Lumpy Space princess: Your regular cop.
Flame Princess: Vig. Only "kills" people (read:throws people out the window) on even nights.

Side Characters:
Bounce House Princess: Jailer. Can pick a target each Day to protect the following Night, preventing them from being kidnapped and giving them a special chat with you, but also preventing them from performing their actions that night. Can not stop the scumteam from performing their kill.
Slime Princess: Delays actions until the next night. Think Pestilence and Icy Manipulator from Magichunt.
Hot Dog Princess: Can send her hot dog knights to track people.
Muscle Princess: One-Shot Bulletproof.
Raggedy Princess: Watcher.
Ghost Princess: Has a psychic connection to the spirits of the damned, I.E. people who are forced to spend time with the Ice King. Can read and post in Deadchat even when alive. Might also have her able to post in regular chat (but not vote) whiel dead, but that a little seems too powerful.
Wildberry Princess: Granny. Gives her protective berry suit to someone if she gets kidnapped or bounced.
Princess Princess Princess: Her vote counts as two votes. This won't show in the votals, but she can thus lynch someone who otherwise who'd otherwise have too few votes or cause a stalemate where there otherwise wouldn't be any. Yes this counts towards overrun, too. Probably the role I'm the most uncertain about from a balance and gameplay perspective.
Skeleton Princess: Busdriver. Could be nerfed to a Redirector in case it's needed.
Breakfast Princess and Toast princess: Possible Masons. You may have noticed that the total number of roles is 14 with these two included. That's because I'm unsure whether to really include these two. If they're included I'll most likely remove two existing roles in order to to make room for them.

There are some mechanics I haven't decided on yet:
As mentioned, I've been thinking of ways to make scum as a faction less powerful. One way to achieve that would be to remove daychat. Note that if daychat is in, the masons won't, since without the daychat scum has no benefit from having two masons.
I'm not sure how to handle flips. Having both alignment and role flip is in line with the goal of weakening scum, but flipping only the role and not the alignment feels like a better use of the role setup.
As mentioned before I'm also having two different ideas for PB's role. I'm not sure which of these roles is the most powerful which admittedly is kinda dependent on what the gifts are. As a sidenote, my original idea for PB was this experimental role that was modconfirmed at gamestart, yet could publicly choose a player to either kill or give an extra life each day, having to switch each day. This gives several wine opportunities and also helps kickstart discussion on day one, but can probably be exploited to break the game. I think I'll just use Cinnamon Bun or Peppermint Butler as a Lumpy to kickstart discussion.
The thing with Lumpy though is that it together with Princess Princess Princess' role will pretty much break the game. So I might have to change her for something else. In fact, I'm kind of worried about her even without the Lumpy.
I've been thinking of having Magic Man as a 3p, but I'm unsure whether this is a good idea. And if I include him, I still don't know whether to have him as a survivor, serial killer, marker or something else, and whether I should give him any extra powers or not.
Another role I'm unsure about is, as mentioned, the masons. The teamblind role assignment means they only work at all if there's no daychat for scum, and even then you basically use up 2/3 roles for an incomplete version of something that scum already has in most games. Not to mention that if one of the scummasons die the other now has a useless role. Maybe I can add an extra rule that it's impossible for both masons to be scum, but that could lead to unwanted townfirming possibilities.
I'm also uncertain about the jailor. The roleblock and possibility of the jailor being scum helps combat the copdoc exploit, but I'm still worried that someone will find a way around it. Also, if the jailor does end up n the sumteam I'm not sure how fun it is. You'll often want to use it on your teammates but then you have to roleblock them and unlike other times you don't even get a new chat to make up for it.
Finally I wonder if three Main Characters isn't a little too much. I might want to give PB the cop and punt LSP down to Side Character status.

So that's what I have so far! sorry for making you read through that massive wall of text. Please post your feedback, criticism and suggestions below.
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07-02-2015, 11:59 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2015 06:44 PM by amosmyn.)
Post: #2
RE: Adventure Time Mafia (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
So is this a hunt or a mafia?

One of the greatest problems with reviewing Adventure Mafia the first was that pE didn't actually know the difference between the two and why the archetypes are used as templates.

Either run a mafia with hidden roles and flips on death w/alignment or run a hunt with no reveal on death. There is a rare third option of running an open mafia setup but nobody has done it on our forums. Do not straddle this line unless you have spent a great deal of time developing a brand new archetype.

As soon as you stop using or alter the core fundamentals of a Hunt or Mafia you are making a whole new game and that belongs in the realm of Game Design.

Basically, no setup is worth reviewing if you havent decided what kind of game it is because you cant balance something without having a scale to measure it with.
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07-02-2015, 02:08 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2015 02:09 PM by AProcrastinatingWriter.)
Post: #3
RE: Adventure Time Mafia (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
I don't know much about setups but I'm willing to participate whenever this happens. Hopefully be able to start improving my mafia playstyle into something cohesive and a bit more logical.

One thing I will say as someone who knows nothing about setups is that possibility three for Princess Bubblegum's power sounds way overpowerd. Likely to be the first one to die to mafia and there's a certain risk in killing someone each day, yes, but there's also certain rewards when it comes to both those scenarios, and the rewards far outshine the risks. Wouldn't, er, risk using her like that.

[Image: g4osirL.jpg]
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07-02-2015, 05:31 PM
Post: #4
RE: Adventure Time Mafia (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
not related to adventure mafia but has the same theme, hurk

eh, okay mspa

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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07-02-2015, 08:50 PM
Post: #5
RE: Adventure Time Mafia (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
(07-02-2015 11:59 AM)amosmyn Wrote:  So is this a hunt or a mafia?

One of the greatest problems with reviewing Adventure Mafia the first was that pE didn't actually know the difference between the two and why the archetypes are used as templates.

Either run a mafia with hidden roles and flips on death w/alignment or run a hunt with no reveal on death. There is a rare third option of running an open mafia setup but nobody has done it on our forums. Do not straddle this line unless you have spent a great deal of time developing a brand new archetype.

As soon as you stop using or alter the core fundamentals of a Hunt or Mafia you are making a whole new game and that belongs in the realm of Game Design.

Basically, no setup is worth reviewing if you havent decided what kind of game it is because you cant balance something without having a scale to measure it with.

Well obviously this is an open setup, so I guess that means no flips then. I really don't see what the problem with having any flips in an open setup are, though. Isn't it just a balancing issue?
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07-03-2015, 02:15 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2015 02:24 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #6
RE: Adventure Time Mafia (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Massclaiming.
If you have flips in a hunt your game is inherently broken.

Also please change your title to AdventureHunt or something similar without Mafia in the title. We dont need the confusion.

To clarify about Adventure Mafia, the problem with balancing also had to do with pE's stubbornness to change his game because he initially treated selecting roles like picking out his favourite desserts from a buffet.
When we were balancing he treated it more like a negotiation 'well if you're going to remove <role> I want <role> in and didnt actually check how it worked.

So im essence, what I should've done was just deny the game instead of send 75ish back and forth messages with him. But y'know, it happened.

Dont compare the balancing procedure of a Hunt to a Mafia.
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07-03-2015, 03:27 AM
Post: #7
RE: Adventure Time Mafia (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
I agree with basically everything amos says, he's pretty close to an expert on the field. Also, the reason hunts don't have role flips is because all the roles are known from the getgo, so it allows town and scum to more easily solve the game if they know for sure. That's why hunts almost always have powerful anti-claim mechanics (see point 7 for a bit more on that).

Couple of quick setup-specific notes:
1) Yes having three main characters is too much. I'd have one or two.

2) I think Flame Princess could be moved down to side character if you made her kill a oneshot.

3) Ghost princess being able to post while dead is probably a bad idea. If you wanted to have it though, you could limit it (for example, by only allowing a single short post per dayphase). If you don't give her the ability to post while dead (limited) you probably want to give deadchat something to do that can still influence the game slightly.

4) Busdriving in general I find weaker than redirecting, since there's aways a chance that it could backfire (especially if used as protection, which is one of the role's primary uses for a scumteam).

5) Jailer is actually pretty solid, but if it blocks roles it should block ALL roles - including the scumkill. The secret doublevoter is good too, but I wouldn't have it count towards overrun (aka I'd have it stop working at MYLO/LYLO).

6) For the masons, I'd recommend a feature similar to at least some of the Dersehunts, that is, have them be randomized amongst the other roles you have (so anyone can be masons with anyone outside of scummates). It adds the interest of masons without making the role worthless once one side is dead. Obviously this doesn't work with more than one (or two, but they couldn't be masoned ever) main characters.

7) Full granny in such a small setup is probably not a great idea? Not sure what you'd replace it with, but possibly make her a passive version of Bounce House Princess (aka she blocks and masons anyone targeting her). That would only work if the jailerchats were anonymous and would honestly likely be more trouble than its worth. If you want to keep the killing power, maybe make it so that Wildberry sees everyone who visits her, and can choose to blow herself up along with any single visitor - though I think that could also come with problems.

8) Magic Man for Obliterator to prevent massclaiming (which could still be used to solve the game, even though roles are randomized). That one princess that Ice King makes out of bits from all the other princesses would work too for flavour.
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07-03-2015, 08:24 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2015 08:42 AM by Druplesnubb.)
Post: #8
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
(07-03-2015 03:27 AM)Palamedes Wrote:  I agree with basically everything amos says, he's pretty close to an expert on the field. Also, the reason hunts don't have role flips is because all the roles are known from the getgo, so it allows town and scum to more easily solve the game if they know for sure. That's why hunts almost always have powerful anti-claim mechanics (see point 7 for a bit more on that).

Couple of quick setup-specific notes:
1) Yes having three main characters is too much. I'd have one or two.

2) I think Flame Princess could be moved down to side character if you made her kill a oneshot.

3) Ghost princess being able to post while dead is probably a bad idea. If you wanted to have it though, you could limit it (for example, by only allowing a single short post per dayphase). If you don't give her the ability to post while dead (limited) you probably want to give deadchat something to do that can still influence the game slightly.

4) Busdriving in general I find weaker than redirecting, since there's aways a chance that it could backfire (especially if used as protection, which is one of the role's primary uses for a scumteam).

5) Jailer is actually pretty solid, but if it blocks roles it should block ALL roles - including the scumkill. The secret doublevoter is good too, but I wouldn't have it count towards overrun (aka I'd have it stop working at MYLO/LYLO).

6) For the masons, I'd recommend a feature similar to at least some of the Dersehunts, that is, have them be randomized amongst the other roles you have (so anyone can be masons with anyone outside of scummates). It adds the interest of masons without making the role worthless once one side is dead. Obviously this doesn't work with more than one (or two, but they couldn't be masoned ever) main characters.

7) Full granny in such a small setup is probably not a great idea? Not sure what you'd replace it with, but possibly make her a passive version of Bounce House Princess (aka she blocks and masons anyone targeting her). That would only work if the jailerchats were anonymous and would honestly likely be more trouble than its worth. If you want to keep the killing power, maybe make it so that Wildberry sees everyone who visits her, and can choose to blow herself up along with any single visitor - though I think that could also come with problems.

8) Magic Man for Obliterator to prevent massclaiming (which could still be used to solve the game, even though roles are randomized). That one princess that Ice King makes out of bits from all the other princesses would work too for flavour.

Ok, here are my proposed changes:

Flame Princess turns into a one-shot, gets demoted to Side Character.

Ghost Princess gets a new power: At any point in the game she can choose a player to Haunt. She will then become a mason with that player for the rest of the game. She will choose her target during the game instead of before the game starts. This will probably lead to more interesting choices than just going for the most skilled player, and coul help start discussion Day 1 without any need for Lumpy.

Wildberry Princess gets replaced with Princess Monster Wife: After a player "dies" she will take all of their stuff, thus learning their role (but not their alignment).

If everyone is cool with these role changes I'll edit them into the OP.

I'm still not convinced that an obliterator is needed. Witch Hunt seems to be doing perfectly fine without one.

As for dead chat my new plan is to have the residents of dead chat list the living players from towniest to scummiest each night. The average of each player's position on all these lists will then be turned into a new list that is sent into the main thread in the morning. If people find a problem with this I could institute regular angel voting (explained as warning letters flavorwise), but then I'll probably have to reverse the changes to Flame Princess to make up for the added protective power.

Edit: If I return Flame Princess to Main Character status my plan would then be to demote LSP and make PB the cop. PMW's role would then be split between PMW and LSP, with one learning the roles of people who die to lynches and the other learning the roles of people who die in the night.

Edit the second: Still kinda iffy about PPP. Partly because I'm not sure if town would actually want to use the ability if it doesn't count towards overrun. I'm also worried about whether town won't just play around it, I.E. "always have two votes under hammer".
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07-03-2015, 10:52 AM
Post: #9
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Witchhunt also has a lot of significant action from the Angels/Demons that discourage getting too into what roles people have, if I remember correctly. My more basic point is that with almost no exceptions hunts need something to discourage massclaiming. If you think just having the roles be randomized counts, I'd direct you towards One Night Werewolf (which has been played a few times on Eagle-Time), which is sort of set up sort of similarly. It only works because of the fact that town only has one night of info to solve the game - because they know (almost) every single detail of the roles and thus can all just claim and figure out what's going on without fear of scum nailing them for it.
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07-03-2015, 04:08 PM
Post: #10
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
"unaligned roles" really do help solve the massclaim problem, actually.

Or more specifically, if you have unaligned roles, no obliterators or anything, and just a few of the "main characters", early game it's bad to massclaim because the main characters die, and late game a massclaim -does- happen but also doesn't solve anything.

"okay so you have a role that could be scum or town. I uh. I guess that's true?"

like it affects the game and you have to figure it's a bit protown, but it doesn't let town solve the game because knowing all the roles doesn't let town win. (assuming proper balance.)
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07-03-2015, 04:12 PM
Post: #11
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Just for my eyes, could you space out, spoiler, color code, bold/underline/italics or something the text for ease of reading?

It's time to, T-T-T-T-T-T TRIPLE POST
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07-04-2015, 12:57 AM
Post: #12
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
I just fail to see how with this setup, town's move isn't just to force a massclaim first thing day one. I mean, I'll admit that I'm not particularly good at/into hunts so I'm probably not the best authority, but with the large number of info/protective roles the game does look pretty solvable, unless scum gets lucky with the roles they get.
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07-04-2015, 01:05 AM
Post: #13
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Unaligned roles is a lot harder to balance than aligned roles.
Should be pretty clear why.
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07-04-2015, 12:25 PM
Post: #14
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
That's why I suggested having anti-claim mechanics. It still won't solve everything, but it does mean you have one less thing to worry about in terms of things being too town-sided (and if it's done via a third-party it can also serve to threaten scum as well).
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07-04-2015, 12:56 PM
Post: #15
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
If balance is the objective Third Parties in a Hunt is not often the way to go..
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07-04-2015, 05:07 PM
Post: #16
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
I'll concede to your experience there (also it's sort of true in general I think), but I am far more sure that this setup needs something going on beyond the roles here if the scumteam is going to have much of a chance in most iterations of this game. Currently I think a valid strategy for town is to just have everyone claim, lynch/have Flame Princess kill Slime Princess, and play follow the cop for a few dayphases (lynching guilties and/or roles that don't help in that most noble goal).
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07-04-2015, 05:38 PM
Post: #17
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
I couldn't pull up the relevant writing from the Chocolate Pi main website via wayback machine or URL crawling, but I can try to explain why third parties in hunts isn't the best idea.

Hunts are more competitive, balanced games by nature. When you introduce more than one party and do not close the game out when one wins, you bring about lame duck scenarios. That lends itself to the kingmaker scenario, where a near-eliminated party can still affect the outcome of the game.

It's not really a cool thing to have the game's victor be decided by someone who is incapable of winning, and thus you run the risk of throwing a faction's efforts out the window. I think it's pretty obvious why that's bad in hunts (and frustratingly un-fun for those involved).

and now, hunger does what sorrow could never do
website | @tehpilot
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07-05-2015, 02:29 AM
Post: #18
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Yeah I corrected myself there already, but had forgotten about CPI's argument about kingmaking. I think that specific argument comes with exceptions re: factions that can win with others (like a marker or survivor) but that would come with different problems. First and foremost, a third party win isn't exactly common - they're often at odds with both town and scum, both of whom have the power to get rid of them fairly easily. You could make them extremely powerful to compensate, but then you risk them taking over a large portion of the game, which can often result in them getting an 'easy' win. Like Pilot said, a hunt is a more competitive game type, and you don't exactly want a player feeling resentful and/or disinterested because there's almost no way for them to win/lose respectively. Plus, a game can be changed on the poor performance of a single player, imagine how much more that influence would be felt if that player was an entire faction that was added in to counteract some specific roles or mechanics.

Sorry for my earlier bad advice, I wasn't really thinking things through and was basing it off the fact that you (Druple) specifically mentioned thinking about adding a third party (Plus, despite their flaws I did enjoy the Dersehunts).
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07-05-2015, 06:38 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2015 06:42 AM by Druplesnubb.)
Post: #19
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Ok, so in order to check whether massclaims really are a problem I decided to do the simple thing and just have a hypothetical game with a Day 1 massclaim. Now the biggest target for scum would be the cop, but they would have to go through the busdriver and possibly the jailer first, if those roles are town. If they are scum then killing them is obviously counterproductive. This means you basically force scum to either kill or scumfirm their own memebers. Thus I've decided that massclaims really are a problem.
However, I still dislike obliterations. Thus I've come up with another idea, mind control! At night scum can call upon the psychic kitten to mind control a player. It works like obliterations except instead of killing the player you control decide their night actions. Some finer details:

*Mind controlled targets will only be informed of who their target was if that information is part of the role itself. So a mind controlled LSP or Raggedy Princess will learn who their targets were, but a mind controlled PB will not. They will however always be informed that the mind control attempt took place, even if it fails.

*You can't mind control targets to do nothing, you have to direct their power somewhere.

*Mind controls are ignore redirection and down slowing

*In addition to controlling players role powers you can also control their items. When mind controlling someone you can choose to control their role (in which case you need to guess the correct role), their item (in which case you need to guess the correct item) or both (in which case you have to guess both, but if you only get one right the one you guessed right still gets controlled).

*Each player can only get mind controlled once. This number increases to two times when the first scum player dies, and three times when the second dies.

*There is no limit to how many players can get mind controlled in a single night.

*Obviously, trying to mind control a role that doesn't have an active night ability (like Muscle Princess) is pointless, unless you think they have an item.

I think that was all. The idea behind this mechanic was to dicourage massclaims while still making sure that claiming wasn't a complete death sentence. I also wanted to talk about Princess Princess Princess but this was already quite enough to dump on you guys in a single post, so I'm saving that for later. What do you think about this idea?
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07-05-2015, 07:01 AM (This post was last modified: 07-05-2015 07:01 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #20
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Nope. Mind control is a no-go.
Its worse than Oblits because you take away a players ability to play as consequence for claiming and turn them into a living threat.
You would be giving town a legitimate reason to lynch their friends or pass on using actions.

Like Obliteration is a very vanilla penalty. Thats why it works.
Please just use obliteration for now. If you can successfully run a hunt of your own design, then you can try being more creative.

Keep it simple. The best games are refinements of things that have been proven to work.
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07-07-2015, 10:54 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2015 10:56 AM by Druplesnubb.)
Post: #21
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
(07-05-2015 07:01 AM)amosmyn Wrote:  Nope. Mind control is a no-go.
Its worse than Oblits because you take away a players ability to play as consequence for claiming
And regular obliterations don't? The point was to replace obliterations with something that doesn't remove the player from the game, only lasts for one turn and doesn't affect many of the roles it doesn't need to affect. You are correct though in that it could lead to town having to lynch their own members, so I'll have to scrap the idea. I guess regular obliterations are in then (but Ghost Princess* has to be immune in case she targets a scum player).

This has the side effect, however, of making Princess Monster Wife* broken as fuck. Like, scum PMW in the hands of a decent rolereader surviving into endgame is basically an instant win for scum. Her role has to be split up as I've suggested earlier, and I already know which role to replace.
I don't think Princess Princess Princess' role would have to stop working at MYLO like Pala claims, but the fact remains that pushing MYLO and LYLO back/forward was the only thing her role was actually useful for. You can't stealth hammer anyone because no town would ever let a lynch get that close to hammer with her in the game. You can't force a stalemate or act kingmaker either because no town would have two endgame lynches that close with her in the game. And potentially giving a town player a role that's all about deceiving the rest of the town seems pretty iffy in the first place. So I'll switch her out for one of the halves of PMW's old role.
Even so, I'm still kinda worried that it's too powerful in case scum gets both roles. So I'm thinking of making one of the two into a Main Character. With obliterations in the main Character status itself becomes a lot less valuable, making it more of a question of whether said role being available to the scum team is detrimental to the game or not.

Another role I've been thinking of turning into a third Main Character Ghost Princess. Trying to become her mason incentivizes scum to be more active Day 1, but you don't get that if one of the scum themselves is Ghost Princess. The problem with turning a role which self-identifies itself to it's mason (and in it's current design also has to be immune to obliterations) into a Main Character is pretty self-evident, though. I could change the role so it masons two other players and can't target itself, but that just seems way less fun for the player who actually has that role. What do you guys think?

Finally, some questions on how to balance obliterations. Should they only be possible at night or at day too? Should an obliterated player be unable to participate in the deadchat mechanics?** What should the penalty for failing an obliteration be?

*I'm using the modified roles outlined in post #8.

**I also lined up an idea for a voting mechanic in post #8, but no one really commented on it.
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07-07-2015, 11:12 AM
Post: #22
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
If you oblit during the day you reduce the incentive for claiming below a 'fun' level.
Classic oblit penalty is 'spilt soup' public witch reveal on daystart if more than one player was targeted for a soupkill.

Regular obliterations merely have the consequence of death and are only done at night.
There's also the possibility of fakeclaims.
You throw in 'mind control' fakeclaims no longer seem credible because the act of claiming truthfully would be anti-town in virtually any regard...

Please note I'm not going into detail about these sort of problems, nor have I even looked at the roles in your setup.
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07-07-2015, 12:34 PM
Post: #23
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Ghost princess being scum is actually decent for them? They get to buddy up to a town player (or mason themselves if they're worried about being caught for good distancing). I think the actual problem is that town GP masoning scum gives them a free oblit. Honestly I like the basic idea of your deadchat idea in post 8 (honestly I missed it) but I feel like it's too direct. Maybe GP should go back to her old power, and get something as a power once she's dead. Perhaps she could get to vote once at daystart, or send one player a private message via their QT.

Agree that PMW needs to be changed with scum oblits. Maybe make it so that she can guess who will be lynched for the day, and if she's right she gets to use their power? Or you could make her protect her target from abilities for a day (spoon polisher) to create some wine re: whether it's Slime Princess targeting you or PMW.

PPP could be a judge, or some other similar dayend-related power.
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07-08-2015, 04:44 AM
Post: #24
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
I already said back in post #21 that Ghost Princess would have to be immune to obliterations, it's one fo the reasosn I can't make her a Main Character as is. Yes, scum getting Ghost Princess is a really good thing (especially as there's no daychat) but the issue wasn't about that. The issue is that tow nGhost Princess gives everyone an incentive to try and contribute Day 1 so she will pick the mfor mason, while a scum Ghost Princess means scum won't have to worry about whether one of them will be picked or not.
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07-08-2015, 04:56 AM
Post: #25
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Some quick things I see:

P.P.P. as is sounds like a role that would require you to monitor the game more than you'd probably like to in order for it to be used properly and should be replaced with something else.

You also have a lot of info roles... Cop, Watcher & Jailer are three very powerful info roles, and the latter two still get pretty solid information even when a busdrive is used.

There's a lovers mechanic in several witchhunts that eliminates the problem with your masons by randomly picking two townies to be lovers.
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07-08-2015, 12:15 PM
Post: #26
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
That doesn't remove your issue with masons being boring and pointless if one of them gets killed early though - which considering the entire incentive with a town Ghost Princess is to pick a towny person (you know the kind who tend to get murdered early) the whole point seems sort of defeated.

Seconding amos unwittingly seconding my opinion re: random lovers (or just masons).

I don't mind the heavy number of info roles (you forgot tracker amos), since outside of the cop (who has to be town) scum can get just as much out of them as town. That said you might want to have one more anti-role ability (like my suggestion earlier re: a second delayer).
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07-08-2015, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2015 03:07 PM by amosmyn.)
Post: #27
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
I didn't forget tracker, I was highlighting the ones that had the most bulk to their power.
Considering that the scumteam is probably just going to be three players though there's a reasonable chance of scum not getting any info role at all, nevermind enough to assist with the Oblit power. Ideally, scum probably should be mostly info based for a hunt or in a position where they don't need to be checking for info.
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07-08-2015, 03:57 PM
Post: #28
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Ah.

If you count scum as not having those three roles for a hypothetical situation though, you leave scum with a high chance of getting several roles with good capability towards thwarting them (delayer, busdriver, killer most notably). I mean it's still not perfect right now (which is why I think there needs to be more role blocking/screwing abilities out there.

Another thing I noticed is that a bulletproof doesn't do much for scum since there's only one other role that can kill (though I suppose they could off themselves by accident). In situations where scum get the busdriver or killer, them having the bulletproof is almost completely useless.
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07-11-2015, 05:09 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2015 05:10 AM by Druplesnubb.)
Post: #29
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
There are a lot of info roles, but obliterations mean they can't share their info with each other until LYLO. Bounce House Princess kind of puts a dent in this, though. One idea I've had to make Ghost Princess more fun would be for her to pick a new target when the old one dies, which would have similar problems. Coming to think of it, Bounce House Princess has similar problems as Ghost Princess when it comes to obliterations, expect her role is much more powerful, so just making her immune to oblits doesn't work as well.
I think I'll replace her with a redirector, and then put in Witch Hunt style deadchat protections to restore the lost protective power. Could I combine that with my suggested List or would that mean giving the dead too much power? People are already claiming that there's too much information going around.

Another problematic role is PMW. Having her guess on who gets lynched would give her incentives to vote for someone other than the scummiest player, which is bad. Having her vote on who dies in the night meanwhile would be OP as scum, though I could turn her role into a Main Character.

Replacing PPP with a Judge works pretty well, but it means no softlynch since softlynch marginalizes the Judge's role.

Suggested role lineup, separated into Main Characters and Side Characters:
Gifter
Cop
Gravedigger (has to guess who dies, doesn't learn anything from lynches)

Vig
Delayer
Tracker
Bulletproof
Watcher
Masoner (may be able to pick a new target after the old one dies, still not sure on that)
Judge
Busdriver
Redirector
I've decided to use the role names instead of the character name from now on since all these changes mean that which character gets assigned to what role is kinda uncertain
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07-11-2015, 08:24 AM
Post: #30
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Just to verify you know Oblits tend to override everything, yeah?
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07-11-2015, 09:24 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2015 09:24 AM by Druplesnubb.)
Post: #31
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Yes? What are you referring to, exactly?
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07-26-2015, 09:24 AM
Post: #32
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
So I'm taking the lack of responses that this current setup is considered to be reasonably balanced. There's just two things I'm wondering about. The first is the Gifter. I've never really talked about what the actual gifts were but I would consider one gun, one extra life and 2/4 of cop/watcher/tracker/gravedigger to seem pretty reasonable. What do you guys think?
The second issue is how to deal with angel interactions. I think I would make angels able to protect Main Characters once and side characters indefinitely, while scum angels can block Main Characters once and Side Characters indefinitely. Does that sound balanced? I'm still considering using the "scum list" outlined in #8 instead of regular angel protection, but I've already heard complaints that there's borderline too much information available in this setup (though the information gained from the dead wouldn't necessarily be reliable).
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07-26-2015, 11:32 AM
Post: #33
RE: Adventure Time Hunt (no relation to Adventure Mafia)
Lack of responses never means that a setup is balanced.
When someone gives you their word that the setup is balanced it is balanced to that persons judgement.
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