Discussion The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
08-01-2015, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 09-26-2015 07:47 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #1
The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
So this is sort of something I've only just started working on in Modchat with the updated Subforum rules post being on its way but I figured you guys would be the best to consult about it.

The Meridian Standard (v0.32)
Last edited on Sept. 25, 2015 by amosmyn

Night Resolution Priority List:
  • Application of Day End Effects
  • Obliteration
    - Oblit Kill / Soup Kill
  • Overriding (actions that cause an exception to occur in the priority list)
  • Redirection / Nightstart Vanishing
    - Lightning Rod
    - Busdriver / Redirector
  • Roleblocking
    - Roleblock
  • Affinity Modifiers
    - Framing
  • Protection
    - Doctor Save / Ninja modifier
  • Delivery
    - Items / Marking / Masoning
  • Killing
    - Mafia Kill / 3Pty Kill/ Vigilante Kill / Arson / Bodystacker Kill
  • Action Triggered Effects
    - Vanishing
  • Active Investigation
    - Cop / Messenger
    - Tracker
  • Passive Investigation
    - Watcher
  • Sent Items Delivered to Players

Resolutions and Role Guarantees:
  1. There will never be more than two roles with lynch protection in any given game, and never more than one per faction.
  2. There will never be more than three roles with day or night powers that nullify all actions during a phase or end a phase early in any given game, including Leeroy and Lightning Rod.
  3. Items are received before killing actions are processed, but cannot be used in any manner until after investigative actions are processed.
  4. Players are NOT informed of being roleblocked, surviving a kill or otherwise being protected by external causes.
  5. Players are informed if they lose any of their posessions or if their possessions are destroyed. I.E. if the player is a bulletproof and has their bulletproof stolen or destroyed via kill attempt, they will be informed.
  6. Players with abilities that reap information from specific targets will be informed if they fail to receive information if they are roleblocked, fail to target a player or target a vanished player.
  7. No roles with self-targeting protection, redirection or framing. Factions with private group conversations cannot finalize actions that would result in a player being able to bypass this restriction (i.e. Scum 1 targets Player A. Scum 2 busdrives Player A with Scum 1. This would normally allow Scum 1 to target him/herself). Exception: If a player is otherwise redirected into a situation where they visit him/herself via external influence, the player is self-targeted.
  8. There are no game-ending third party wincons, except as described as follows:
  9. In a situation where there is one third party with a killing power, one Town player and one Scum player, the third party wins a solo victory. The other two factions lose the game.
  10. In non-clusterfuck games, there will be no alignment altering roles, such as Cultist. In clusterfuck games it must be explicitly stated whether or not there will be alignment altering roles (no 'maybe' cases, please). In this case, Altering refers to the ability for a role to manipulate another's wincon.
  11. There may be one role in any game capable of changing his or her own alignment from Town to Scum or Third Party or from Third Party to Town or Scum. A role that can switch from Scum to Town or Third Party may only exist if the originally scum role has absolutely no connection to scumchat or any means of identifying the permanent component of the scum team.
  12. Maplehoof: Unless a role specifically says otherwise, nobody wins if all players are dead at any point in time.
  13. Where these resolutions fail to solve an issue, the moderator will do his/her best to find an adequate solution.


Basically this is a standard that you can use in your "Game Guarantees" section. It's intended for standard mafia games as a guideline to ensure that actions are processed in the same way across the board.

For example, there's debate as far as whether roleblocking is supposed to inform the roleblocked or not. As you'll see in the Meridian Standard, the target is not informed; the point more than anything is to make sure everyone is on the same page about what to expect, regardless of which way a player prefers the action to be resolved. This likely will reduce modquestions, make it easier for players to figure things out for themselves and for mods to solve action priorities.

Hopefully it will also impact fakeclaims: it's been really easy to get away with whatever you want with everybody wanting to make the next groundbreaking thing in mafia, but realistically, I don't think any of us actually want to see there being three Leeroys in any setup ever, nevermind remotely considering the possibility when someone makes an out of the ballpark claim.

I still need to organize the standard, but if anyone has any suggestions to add to it please go ahead and shoot! This topic is intended not only to be used as a resource but to be used for discussion about how actions should be resolved.
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08-01-2015, 01:53 PM
Post: #2
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
Related: Crooks Hollow 4 will be using this.
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08-02-2015, 04:33 PM
Post: #3
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
have you considered trying to draft a code of conduct

also would this be going in a subforum rules sticky (you know, the thing we don't have)

(unless the mafia news bulletin is supposed to be that)

(in which case you should probably change the name of the thread)

(or make twoooooooo threads)

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
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08-02-2015, 05:22 PM
Post: #4
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
That has actually been a project in the works for a while but we were all too busy for a long time to make much progress. Basically it's been moving, but slowly. Stay tuned though!

Also I'm pretty down with Meridian as well as any other alternate standards people would like to cook up (should probably do one for clusterfucks, experimentals, and other setups). Only thing I'll add that I forgot in modchat is that I'm wondering if there should be some sort of standard ruling on how questions and clarifications should be dealt with (especially regarding the setup in game).
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08-02-2015, 05:28 PM
Post: #5
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
i also don't know why amos wants to nerf fakeclaims? it makes no sense. explain me a thing

"Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.
Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.
"I don't see any wine," she remarked.

(06-25-2013 09:31 AM)Chirality Wrote:  And then everyone cut the simplest explanations in tiny pieces then set them on fire then threw them in a lake and poisoned the lake.
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08-02-2015, 08:52 PM
Post: #6
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
Its more intended to force people not to make ridiculous setups that should more or less never happen.
And by proxy give people more faith in setups and less in claims that would mean that the setup is not well balanced/designed if true.
Fakeclaim game should still be strong, it just means people cant scapegoat the mod as much.

Not sure if this topic needs stickying when we can just link to it from one of the stickied topics (News bulletin will be merged with another btw.)
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08-03-2015, 04:35 AM
Post: #7
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
How does "not informed of roleblock" combine with active investigative roles? Or any active role that inherently gets confirmation it wasn't roleblocked (item-gifter, or whatever.)
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08-03-2015, 06:13 AM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2015 06:24 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #8
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
"Your investigation returned with no conclusive result" (This would also apply if the investigative targeted Nobody or a vanished target such as a Jailed player.)

I dont think item gifters generally are informed? Will have to clarify that in thebstandard.
Probably will add 'Game mod must clarify how third parties would theoretically be checked in the case of a cop check', Options being Null, 3pty, Town/Scum, or possibly dependent on whether theyre a passive third party (survivor, marker) or a threat (SK, bodystacker).

Also, anything above is up for debate, so feel free to put in input one way or another.
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08-03-2015, 07:13 AM
Post: #9
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
I thought gifters were informed if they still had their item (as in, 'you fail to give your whatever-you're-gifting') indicating very much the same as investigative roles.
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08-03-2015, 08:19 AM
Post: #10
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
Some do some dont.. Hmm
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09-26-2015, 12:52 AM (This post was last modified: 09-26-2015 12:52 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #11
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.2)
Added "Overriding" to role priority list, non-clusterfuck ban on alignment changing roles (except for Traitor as described).
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09-26-2015, 04:25 AM
Post: #12
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Personally I think it's fine for roles that change their own alignment (in ways clear to the haver of the role) to exist - the thing that is bad is for roles that change other player's alignments to exist.
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09-26-2015, 04:47 AM
Post: #13
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
I don't think I've ever seen a scum-to-town role before. Has that been a thing here?
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09-26-2015, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 09-26-2015 07:50 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #14
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
(09-26-2015 04:25 AM)Sotek Wrote:  Personally I think it's fine for roles that change their own alignment (in ways clear to the haver of the role) to exist - the thing that is bad is for roles that change other player's alignments to exist.

Having the role change from Scum to Town can definitely result in some bad situations but I suppose it might be fine if they don't get access to scumchat..
I've modified the thing to be more accessible.
Still, rule of thumb I don't think there should be more than one instance of that sort of role in any sort of standard game. Like, one Amnesiac or one Traitor, not both.

Definitely up for discussion..

Town to Scum roles are uncommon because they can swing the game very easily and prematurely end it.. so I'm not totally confident they should be in but I guess I don't see a reason to outright ban it as long as the "only one" restriction is in effect.
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09-26-2015, 08:12 AM
Post: #15
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
a "self-alignment-changing" role can be pretty swingy, which can be a problem sometimes, yep.

but for instance, a role could be a "universal backup" - takes the alignment+role of the first dead person. (or first not-them, or whatever)

kind of an awkward role to be on d1, but it's not BS.

BS is "you just smashed my team's chances! Now you're on my team ha ha ha" that you get with cults.
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09-26-2015, 09:59 AM
Post: #16
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Yeah, that definitely sounds more useful than an Amnesiac for game balancing purposes.

Still think that 1 is a pretty fair number for now.
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10-20-2015, 07:29 AM (This post was last modified: 10-20-2015 07:35 AM by Carnegie.)
Post: #17
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Is it considered standard that if there's one mafia left and they get roleblocked, no (mafia) nightkill happens that night?
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10-20-2015, 07:50 AM
Post: #18
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
I think so. Don't most games assign a nightkill to one of the mafia each night, and if he gets roleblocked, no kill?

That's how I would approach it ideally
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10-20-2015, 08:01 AM
Post: #19
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
I think I've seen games where roleblock stops the kill and games where it doesn't. I think that to be fair, if it's the latter, the roleblocker should be able to tell either explicitly or based on flips when it's plausible that the latter would result in them mistakenly townfirming a scum. (ie, when scum presumably only have one person left.)
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10-20-2015, 08:15 AM
Post: #20
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
It might even be fair for there to be several options for how the nightkill interacts with roleblocks (no effect at all, stops it if the right mafioso is roleblocked, stops it if the ONLY mafioso is roleblocked, etc) and specify that in the OP...except then EVERY game (even those with no roleblocker) would have to do so.

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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10-20-2015, 08:18 AM
Post: #21
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
The only ones who need to know how roleblock interacts with the mafia kill are the mafia and the roleblocker, IMO.
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10-20-2015, 08:28 AM
Post: #22
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Oh true. Although some things might be inferrable about it from how overrun turns out...

Wait, are the Overrun rules aimed at "Scum have a majority" or "Scum victory is inevitable"?

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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10-20-2015, 08:47 AM (This post was last modified: 10-20-2015 08:48 AM by amosmyn.)
Post: #23
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Typically scum win by becoming the majority faction regardless of town power because they control the lynch more than the town or other antifaction.

Roleblocking should by standard block the Mafia NK, but any standard can be amended by the host to have exceptions so long as theyre explicitly stated.

Faction abilities are typically untrackable because theyre a group source but if a player is designated to do the targeting that player accepts being the visiting party.
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10-20-2015, 08:54 AM
Post: #24
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Usually, if there is a town doublevoter and town vig left and the scum numbers are equal to town, I'd let it keep going.
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10-20-2015, 09:19 AM
Post: #25
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
I'm more thinking of the case where scum can force a no lynch, but circumstances (a town busdriver being the most basic, doc + vig being a close second) meaning more scum than town could die in the night.

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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10-20-2015, 12:00 PM
Post: #26
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Overrun takes place during the day phase.
Doublevoter + vig + 2 scum... @ day
one scum is eliminated via lynch, vig shoots, scum shoots, one town remains.
I suppose it could be reworded to be "controls the majority of the vote" to adopt that circumstance.
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10-21-2015, 12:53 AM
Post: #27
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
That makes the most sense to me? I know I would be a little frustrated if the game was ended prematurely while I still had a chance to win it.

The only issue there of course is there are situations in which town could still tie the vote but have no chance (two vanillas to two scum or a single doublevoter to two scum). That caveat could be added easily to prevent dragging the game out over another day, because it's even more frustrating to have to play when you (unwittingly) have a 0% chance of winning - first DHI comes to mind for me.
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10-21-2015, 03:32 AM
Post: #28
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Probably would have to combine both to accomidate multiple factions and unwinnable situations.
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10-21-2015, 05:03 AM
Post: #29
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
The standard from Witchhunt is "witches win by eliminating town, town wins by eliminating witches. The game ends if the outcome is guaranteed"

usually guaranteed means a scum win, but in WH for instance if it goes to a judge (breaks ties) and a witch in day, the judge autolynches the witch and town wins.

I applied a similar-but-more-complicated rule in the latest Winefia.

I think more generally... "When the outcome of the game is a foregone conclusion, the game should end in that outcome."

That turns overrun into an automatic resolution procedure - scum overrun when "of course" they win.

It leaves a bit of mod judgement in, but the main way a mod is gonna mess up is by leaving a game running when they shouldn't, which is a pretty okay failure mode.
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10-21-2015, 05:14 AM
Post: #30
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
I played in a game IRL as mafia, and once the game should have ended, everyone kept playing. I revealed myself as mafia and stated that the game was over, and got lynched. It took another 5-10 wasted minutes of time for the players to finish killing all of the town and accept the win.

My fellow Mafiosi also lynched me with the town because they were afraid of being outed. There were four scum and three town at this point.

It was a sad moment.

I don't really have a point here other than that continuing games when victory/failure is inevitable is silly, and wastes people's time.
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10-21-2015, 09:11 AM
Post: #31
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Yeah, having it be an adjudication thing for when the game ends is probably the best solution (especially since mechanically unique roles we haven't thought of might cause a situation that needs to be adjudicated...)

I think it'd be good to come up with a few illustrative cases to actually PUT in the standard though?

e.g. "If town and scum numbers are equal but town has a busdriver, the possibility exists that the busdriver will redirect the nightkill onto scum to give town a numerical majority again"

"If town has a doublevoter, they still have control of the lynch if numbers are equal. In some situations this means a town victory is still possible"

"Other mechanical scenarios can lead to the game not being ended in situations where you might think it would be. Remember that as a player you have imperfect information and if the moderator has not ended the game there is a good reason for it"

Also make a note that in LYLO and MYLO cases people who don't cause a loss on lynching aren't necessarily "everyone in the scumteam". LYLO can be "lynch the Serial Killer or lose" or "lynch the double-killing scum or lose". I say this because it's super disappointing if you don't know this, lynch a scum, and then lose anyway.

WHOA CHECK OUT ALL THESE MAFIA GAMES GUYS
(06-06-2016 06:12 AM)Coldblooded Wrote:  if there was ever a scumteam to overthink things and make a huge dramatic production out of day one, DC and Granola would probably be it.
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10-21-2015, 10:50 AM
Post: #32
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Important follow-on question: Do unrecruited traitors count to overrun if the scum suspect but are never mod-confirmed of their existence
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10-21-2015, 02:19 PM
Post: #33
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Case A: Traitor is town until turncoats. If still town, counts as a town player until swapped. Its mostly his/her responsibility to make sure the swap happens in a manner that allows he or she to win if in control of alignment (there should be restrictions in place to when alignment can be swapped, ideally not at MYLO/LYLO and only during the night phase.)
Case B: If Traitor must be recruited by scum, these traitors are typically scum to begin with and count towards overrun even if they cant coordinate with scum (aka scum without scumchat access).

I can probably reword this and have it listed as a footnote or something.
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10-21-2015, 06:24 PM
Post: #34
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
For traitor-who-is-scum-but-hidden ... I mean, the question is if it's possible for town to recover if scum don't publicly say "yo, traitor, where you at?"

Like if it's three town vs two scum+traitor who is recruited by scum whiffing a kill on him ... town can actually come back from that! If they lynch one of the scum (requiring bussing or traitor's help - traitor help is the main one here) and the scum recruit the traitor ... it's 3v2 the next day, which is lylo but winnable.

I'd keep the game going as mod there, but if scum+traitor say stuff and force a no-lynch, then scum really do win.
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10-22-2015, 12:02 AM
Post: #35
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
In that situation it would be MYLO before LYLO, no?
I dont think I wholly agree with it.. might try and rebuttle it later.
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10-22-2015, 12:54 AM
Post: #36
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Well I think the assumption is that scum should know about a traitor's existence (especially one that counts as scum from the getgo). If scum's victory is logically assured, it should be regularly assured. I know that if I was scum in your situation Sotek, I would be super pissed if I saw my two living scumbuddies not call out the traitor and win and thus potentially cost us a game we had won (because you can bet that I wouldn't be alive and randomly forgetting we had a traitor).
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10-22-2015, 04:30 AM
Post: #37
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Pala: well I mean, it's theoretically possible that town actually tricks the traitor into lynching scum there.

(but then scum just make sure not to recruit, heh)

uh. yeah. I mean if scum know the traitor exists, then that should definitely be ended in a scum win. (they no-lynch, doesn't matter who they shoot - a recruit is same state but now they know the traitor for sure, a townie means scum just plain have numbers.)
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10-22-2015, 07:00 AM
Post: #38
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
I guess it's possible, though what a way to end it would be if you could convince the traitor that one of the two people claiming scum are lying town trying to trick everyone into revealing their traitor-ness (despite both scum confirming that they are not doing this).
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10-22-2015, 07:19 AM
Post: #39
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
In that scenario, the mod should have announced things such that the traitor knows there's two scum left, so if the scum just vote no-lynch, the traitor will hammer it and let his scumbuddies sort it out.
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10-22-2015, 08:22 AM
Post: #40
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
Traitors are terrible and shouldn't exist in games, though.
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10-22-2015, 09:17 AM
Post: #41
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
@Sotek: That's what I'm saying.

@Eido: I've had some of the most fun I've ever had playing mafia as a traitor, honestly. I mean if you're talking competitively then it's not ideal but that's not everything?
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10-22-2015, 02:24 PM
Post: #42
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
-shrug- Competitive games are the only thing I can stand, I guess? It's just an awful role that I don't think has any place in an actual mafia game.

It's on par with game ending jesters.
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10-22-2015, 02:58 PM
Post: #43
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
I generally dont like Traitors myself due to their swingy nature but this is intended as more of a guideline fr good design as opposed to a means of enforcing tight restrictions.

Kinda like the building code; not telling you what to do, just ensuring you dont make a 30 storey commercial business in a suburb.
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10-22-2015, 03:35 PM
Post: #44
RE: The Meridian Standard (v0.3)
I think comparing just about any role with game ending jesters (or really jesters in general) is pretty ridiculous? Especially a mostly benign one like that - amos is right that it is naturally a bit swingy (more or less so depending on the type I guess) but its hardly a ruinous power like you're making it sound. Plus he's also right that guidelines should be just that as opposed to a 'these are the only roles/setups allowed' sort of system.

(Also as much as I love debating the merits and flaws of roles and the like this isn't really the proper place to do so, this is for issues pertaining to the Meridian Standard.)
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